Venting thread

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Splug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:58 am

From being on both ends of the retribution pvp table, damage output while divine shielded really did feel like the single greatest imbalance factor. There were a few other things, but toning down output while immune is absolutely essential in getting retribution to a reasonable level. Classes such as mages and warlocks are absolutely reliant on keeping aggressors at bay via slows, fears, or freezes - it's their armor, so to speak. The killer isn't the damage reduction of divine shield, it's the fact that for a timeframe long enough to slaughter someone in fairly high resilience, the damage becomes completely unstoppable (well, ice block still works, but even though one-to-one comparisons are inacurate it's worth acknowledging that their equivalent cooldown doesn't allow them to even move, let alone do damage). Avenging Wrath excacerbates the problem; it is not the root.

The Avenging Wrath forebearance change indicates they've realized burst damage during immunity is the problem. They're aiming in the right direction, but the shot lacks precision; hopefully, they'll seek out a different approach to correcting the situation quickly. This feels like a tourniquet - it's not a long term solution, it's just a quick patch to stall the bleeding until a better alternative comes around.

-Splug

EDIT: Actually, the word "patch" may be a key term here - their options for inclusion in a hotfix are limited. Possibly, they just can't implement what they're really aiming at, but this was achievable faster.
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:24 am

No amount of posting constructively will change the haphazard approach Blizzard takes uniquely to Paladin balancing.

You can engage a dialogue with GC about the changes that are being implemented, their effects and how we can adapt and move on. He spent the entire weekend talking to us very in-depth about it.

But the gist of his posts, at least implicitly, is that Ret was the most OP spec ever in the history of WoW. When they first nudged it with small nerfs, it didn't budge. So they had to change gears and nerf the living daylights out of it. Then they'll watch as the dust settles to see if the mean old OP Ret has finally been toned down to decent levels before going around picking up the Prot and Holy pieces to rebuild.

It's the attitude of their approach that we will never get a dialogue on. Anytime someone asks, GC deflects the question into either a veiled attack from us on them personally or changes it into an emergency situation of "Ret OP >>>>>>>>> every other OP spec". Despite, imo, those concerns not being genuine, simply engaging in dialogue about their attitude is made impossible by their defensive stance on the matter.

When the other party refuses to talk to you about their attitude (it stinks), and you made a post specifically to rant about it, I don't think it makes any sense to try to continue futilely beg for mediation. Trying to talk to them always leads them to argue with us and ignoring the obvious precedent-breaking approach they're taking with Paladins as a whole.

I think they owe everyone here an explanation of why collateral damage of this magnitude on a live server, is acceptable just this one time. It's never happened before.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:26 am

moduspwnens wrote:I guess it depends on what you consider to be "QQing." I certainly won't take credit specifically for any Blizzard changes, but I think this board overall can. We started the thread that got the HotR mechanics changed, we started the thread that got our 3% more mitigation, we started the thread that got GC to admit our blocks don't scale well with high end gear, and probably several other things.

In fact, I'm having difficulty finding something that got changed that wasn't already clearly pointed out by this very community. I guess you could call that more constructive criticism than QQ, though, but the line can be blurry.


[rant]

Indeed, this board is for discussion, not sitting around, holding hands, and pounding sunshine up each others asses. Yes, the anti QQ posts can be hypocritical because they often target valid complaints, but at the same time there are always posts complaining about silly things like the weather in Turkey, so the anti QQ posts definitely have their place too. They just need to understand not every QQ is meaningless or invalid, just like everyone who complains needs to understand sometimes they are just being whiney little bitches.

Seriously, we just got nerfed twice for absolutely no reason, and for nothing that had anything to do with us, and when people complain they are told not to be negative and stop QQing?!?! Do these nerfs break us? No of course not, could they lead to problems, sure. Could they be a bit of an ominous sign as to how things will be handled during the crunch time of this being live, absolutely.

Discussing things here even when it's about stuff that needs to be fixed is a great way to expand awareness and get different perspectives about the issues.

[/rant]

Sorry about that, but now I've vented so I feel better...


Ziggy I disagree with one of the points you made, I still think it's a very good thing that they talk a lot more about the development process. Sure it opens them up for a lot nonsense, but I think at the end of the day, they have gotten a lot of targeted feedback and have incorporated many things that the community discussed as a result. In the past when they change/designed stuff, the community was kind of useless because you never knew what they felt the problems were to be addressed, good or bad.

In fact, I think part of the reason Rets felt so blind sided by all these nerfs was because of withholding information. When GC answered the question about Ret DPS, he said it was fine, and then the big unannounced nerfs came. Now he's explained why he said that, so if you take that info then his initial answer probably should have been more complete... "We are looking at Ret DPS and burst, but right now there are a few bugs that are making Ret's DPS higher than it should be. Once we get those bugs fixed we think their DPS will be where it should be but if not we'll make adjustments" there would not have been such a backlash.

Now, most of our complaints isn't that ret got nerfed but that in doing so, we got nerfed, so our reaction would have been the same, but bad solutions are bad, so they earned that.
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Postby Splug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:32 am

crabcrouton wrote:I think they owe everyone here an explanation of why collateral damage of this magnitude on a live server, is acceptable just this one time. It's never happened before.
Ehh, I wouldn't go that far. That's a very relativistic and subjective comment, and off the top of my head I can think of at least one overcompensating change with fairly heavy fallout. The rage mechanics at TBC launch were changed to compensate for what extremely well-geared fury warriors were capable of. The results were crippling for the whole class - even to players in the same spec who just didn't have late-Naxxramas gear.

The rage formula was adjusted fairly quickly, but not before a lot of people had already dredged to 70 in that state.

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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:15 pm

Splug wrote:Ehh, I wouldn't go that far. That's a very relativistic and subjective comment, and off the top of my head I can think of at least one overcompensating change with fairly heavy fallout. The rage mechanics at TBC launch were changed to compensate for what extremely well-geared fury warriors were capable of. The results were crippling for the whole class - even to players in the same spec who just didn't have late-Naxxramas gear.

The rage formula was adjusted fairly quickly, but not before a lot of people had already dredged to 70 in that state.

-Splug

I remember that change and that is nothing like ours.

For once, it was not a hotfix, and it was not 3 hotfixes in a row. Fury Warriors were outdpsing Rogues in AQ and Naxx for 3 patches before they fixed it. A far cry from Paladins.

For two, Warriors and Bears came out of BC beta with extremely high rage generation. So you had Fury that needed to be nerfed and Prot was just swimming in endless rage on every Kara boss in beta. Go back to any Warrior forum post around that time and see why everyone was "lol Endless Rage". Furthermore, Arms rarely had a raid spot and nobody even knew what to do with Arms yet as the Slam rotation was only beginning to be researched.

My point is that collateral damage was very minimized. You had a situation where 2/3 specs needed to be toned down and the remaining spec was a wild card.

Compared in this case, Paladins have 1 spec that deserves the nerfs and 2 specs eating collateral damage like candy on Halloween. Prot's tps generation relative to other tanks is already the worst and that's including bugged JoL giving us raid threat.

Instead of waiting for a patch to come up with good, reasonable, intelligent changes that yields precise results, they bring the nerfs in three hotfixes consecutively. And yes, it's relativistic and subjective but that's what communication is all about. Bliz either illuminates the masses about why it their actions seem skewed and heavy handed or leave us to misunderstand their intentions.

I mean, GC prefaces all of his statements with something like "at this time" or "with our current data" specifically to say that the viewpoint is subjective from a temporal perspective. I think it's silly to expect otherwise.
Last edited by crabcrouton on Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:17 pm

Can someone please summarize for me what this thread accomplishes?

btw Splug your avatar is awesome.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:27 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Can someone please summarize for me what this thread accomplishes?

btw Splug your avatar is awesome.


I like Splug's avatar, too.
I rule.
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Postby uke » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:35 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Can someone please summarize for me what this thread accomplishes?

btw Splug your avatar is awesome.


I like Splug's avatar, too.


Agreed. A cute slug with Thunderfury is just win.

Did he ever tell us what his name meant?
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Postby uke » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:40 pm

Oh, I almost forgot:

Sabindeus wrote:Can someone please summarize for me what this thread accomplishes?


To summarize:

QQ...QQQQQ.QQ.QQQQ...Blizzard hates us...I'm going to reroll....My life sucks, woe is me....more self-pity fests...QQQQQQ...What's the point of living anymore...QQ....I hate PVP....more QQ...somebody hug me I'm going to cancel my account today...QQ....OMG the sky is falling and life is despair, I can't possibly go on and take anymore of this. Oh, and more QQ.

For those of you wanting to reroll or cancel your account over TRANSITIONARY nerfs, which are not set in stone, and of which will still change more as we go along: Goodbye and good riddance. We will not miss you.

I'll still be smashing faces, and rocking at it.
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:50 pm

uke wrote:Oh, I almost forgot:

Sabindeus wrote:Can someone please summarize for me what this thread accomplishes?


To summarize:

QQ...QQQQQ.QQ.QQQQ...Blizzard hates us...I'm going to reroll....My life sucks, woe is me....more self-pity fests...QQQQQQ...What's the point of living anymore...QQ....I hate PVP....more QQ...somebody hug me I'm going to cancel my account today...QQ....OMG the sky is falling and life is despair, I can't possibly go on and take anymore of this. Oh, and more QQ.

For those of you wanting to reroll or cancel your account over TRANSITIONARY nerfs, which are not set in stone, and of which will still change more as we go along: Goodbye and good riddance. We will not miss you.

I'll still be smashing faces, and rocking at it.

Why would you stroke your ego this way?

There are legitimate issues raised that you obviously didn't read. If you didn't read the thread, why comment on it? Massaging your ego over how you're resilient to changes is actually not a counterpoint to what the thread is about at all.

At the very least we should try to read and understand what others are saying rather than group every post up into a us vs. them paradigm.
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Postby Splug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:51 pm

Thanks! The avatar is the one I've been using for years on my guild's forums, but I couldn't find a link to it and was too lazy to re-upload it here. A friend drew it for me; I'm not clever or talented enough to do something like that on my own.
crabcrouton wrote:I remember that change and that is nothing like ours.

For once, it was not a hotfix, and it was not 3 hotfixes in a row. Fury Warriors were outdpsing Rogues in AQ and Naxx for 3 patches before they fixed it. A far cry from Paladins.

For two, Warriors and Bears came out of BC beta with extremely high rage generation. So you had Fury that needed to be nerfed and Prot was just swimming in endless rage on every Kara boss in beta. Go back to any Warrior forum post around that time and see why everyone was "lol Endless Rage". Furthermore, Arms rarely had a raid spot and nobody even knew what to do with Arms yet as the Slam rotation was only beginning to be researched.

My point is that collateral damage was very minimized. You had a situation where 2/3 specs needed to be toned down and the remaining spec was a wild card.

Compared in this case, Paladins have 1 spec that deserves the nerfs and 2 specs eating collateral damage like candy on Halloween. Prot's tps generation relative to other tanks is already the worst and that's including bugged JoL giving us raid threat.
Well, like I said, it was fixed fairly quickly - around the time people started getting to Karazhan (~2 weeks after the expansion), the rage formula was reworked and the normalization values were increased. After that point, things were resolved. If you're looking at posts from the early Karazhan era, you're probably looking at a later timeframe than I was speaking of. But there was a brief era where trying to generate rage as a warrior was pretty terrible, where only the upper crust of the fury population had rage to do anything with. It was right at the release of burning crusade; warriors did not come out of the gate strong at all. The big irritant on top of that was that druid rage generation wasn't a problem. Also, I don't see how the duration of the problem has anything to do with the "magnitude" of the fallout.

As for endless rage, there were two big jokes at the start of TBC. One was that for 41 points in arms, you can almost undo the rage nerf. The other was that it competed against flurry, so you could either get 25% more rage from the 41-point arms talent or you could just autoattack 25% more often, which generated 25% more rage on top of the higher autoattack damage. The problem wasn't that rage was abundant, it was that ER was inferior to the cross-tree alternatives.

-Splug
Last edited by Splug on Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby crabcrouton » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:54 pm

Well I'll agree to disagree with you Splug but good points nonetheless. =)
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Postby Splug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:58 pm

I'm just saying there's no good scale for it and you'll have hell trying to back up a "worst nerf ever" point. It could well be true! But trying to run the math on a lot of changes which are difficult to model in a simulator due to their impact being largely decision-based (IE: the forebearance change) isn't something that can be easily quantified. I just pulled the one example that I best remember playing through as a counterpoint.

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Postby uke » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:59 pm

crabcrouton wrote:Why would you stroke your ego this way?

There are legitimate issues raised that you obviously didn't read. If you didn't read the thread, why comment on it? Massaging your ego over how you're resilient to changes is actually not a counterpoint to what the thread is about at all.

At the very least we should try to read and understand what others are saying rather than group every post up into a us vs. them paradigm.


Look around. I'm not the only person getting beyond fed up with the endless string of selfpity bawling. It's gotten progressively worse over the last few months.

I'm all for discussing legitimate issues. However:

"I think I've just given up on my class. It's clear that Blizzard has no idea what to do with us and we're going to be worthless for all of WotLK. Maybe I should just reroll or cancel my account"

...is NOT legitimate discussion. And it's infectiously spread to annoying quantities all over this forum, usually from the same group of offenders. Not to mention that fact that a good 50% of the posts in this section are nothing BUT that.

You want to discuss issues we have, with maybe a plan for posting to beta forums to try to get devs to look at it, I'm all for that.

You want someone to give you a hug because you're so despondent that your life sucks, and you want to reroll a new guy or cancel your account, given that stuff changes for better and worse every single week? Spare me the crying. Here's a bottle and a diaper for you.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:45 pm

uke wrote:Oh, I almost forgot:

Sabindeus wrote:Can someone please summarize for me what this thread accomplishes?


To summarize:

QQ...QQQQQ.QQ.QQQQ...Blizzard hates us...I'm going to reroll....My life sucks, woe is me....more self-pity fests...QQQQQQ...What's the point of living anymore...QQ....I hate PVP....more QQ...somebody hug me I'm going to cancel my account today...QQ....OMG the sky is falling and life is despair, I can't possibly go on and take anymore of this. Oh, and more QQ.

For those of you wanting to reroll or cancel your account over TRANSITIONARY nerfs, which are not set in stone, and of which will still change more as we go along: Goodbye and good riddance. We will not miss you.

I'll still be smashing faces, and rocking at it.


This post summarizes pretty much everything I abhor with anti QQ posts and it's why they are sooo much worse than the QQ post they are responding to in the first place. From this point on there is no where this thread can go but down, and so it will probably end up locked.

This post basically attempts to marginalize all the posts in this thread as useless drivel. Are there some over the top whines here, some blizzard hates me crap, yeah. Is that even anywhere close to the bulk of the discussion here, not even freaking close.

At least when people are whining, they aren't being condescending to members, they aren't being derisive, they aren't dividing the community. They may be wrong, but if they are you could, oh I don't know, tell them why they are wrong. Instead, the anti QQ posts basically fall back on the attack the poster, marginalize the thread, and call people names because we know better philosophy. It's hypocrisy at its worst.

I highly suggest this type of post isn't made again.
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