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Now that AW causes forbearance again

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Dantriges » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:06 am

Is it just the tooltip or is Shield of the Templar still without the mitigation bonus in Live.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:06 am

Knaughty wrote:He's promised to fix the acknowledged issues we have


I've no contention with anything you've said as it's dependant on a number of circumstances, but I do take issue with that statement above, it's not accurate, they have promised to fix "nothing", they've said they'll take a look at it, that is all.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:29 am

GC got still 10 days to fix the threat/dps issue.

Actually, it's less, since i expect 3.0.3 going on either this or the next week.

As i said multiple times, we'll see.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Postby Dehn » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:58 am

Worldie wrote:GC got still 10 days to fix the threat/dps issue.

Actually, it's less, since i expect 3.0.3 going on either this or the next week.

As i said multiple times, we'll see.


I guess its possible to get my warrior from 67 to 70 before the expansion in the week that is left.
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Postby sherck » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:06 am

This is pretty disappointing for a Healadin...

I have been having fun using AW for PvE play. Pretty nice to have an "on-demand" DPS boost that has real results rather than my only other one which is popping my +155 Spell Power trinket with underwhelming results.

However, for a Holy, I will never sacrifice my bubble in order to use it. Never. Never.

My bubble is my life. In raiding, it is my only aggro control outside of casting HoSalv on myself which I do with some frequency when I can spare the GCD.

In solo play, my strength is outlasting my opponent. bubble + bandages or heals against an interrupter is my life. I can outheal a lot of damage and cannot see wanted to sacrifice that ability in order to boost already underwhelming DPS by 20%.

It was also my way of actually being able to heal while doing Divine Plea at level 71.

1st Divine Plea, use AW to completely counteract the -20% healing debuff.
2nd Divine Plea, use + 155 SP trinket to gain back around 12% of the -20% healing debuff.
3rd Divine Plea, use the other +155 SP trinket...
4th Divine Plea, Use AW again...

But....not so anymore because there is no way I am going without my bubble in a raid encounter.

So, I guess I can again move my AW button to the part of my bar that I never use...right next to my Seal of Blood, Seal of the Marty, Sense Undead, and Judgement of Light buttons.

Sigh....

Cheers,
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Postby Rhî » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:09 am

I'll stick to my Paladin, regardless what will happen. If all turns good, hooray and I'll stay a happy raider. If not, then I just play the level content and quit. I do not care about rerolling. I have except rogue, priest and dk every class at 70. And the only one, that gives me joy, is the paladin.

It's because of the lore of the class. And the only reason I'll buy LK (95% chance) is the lore. The story is epic, the class balance is a farce.
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Postby Macha » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:11 am

Knaughty wrote:So I'd actually say he's best case for paladins (fast hits) and best case for warriors (stomp + SB).


He was best case for us. He isn't anymore.
Brutallus pre-nerf was always dangerous, just especially so during stomp. We took more damage pre block, but because we blocked everything a stomp-combo was detoothed for us.
Post-nerf Brutallus is only dangerous during stomp. Stomp has a limited time and one can easily save Shieldblock for it. This makes Stomp do only minor additional damage on a warrior, and still major additional damage on a Paladin.

As you see, the strengths reversed. Warriors used to take less damage overall but more during burst. Now we have that "role".

Your WWS data proves this, you are just confused about its meaning. Yes, average damage is the same or slightly better for the Paladin. But as I said before, that is a meaningless distinction. Average damage does not kill a tank. BURST DOES.

Take your data, it proves my point.
You: Highest damage 12k
Warrior: Highest damage 11k

Stompcombo is MHOHMHOH - your burst is potentially 3k-4k higher than that of your co-tank. If sunwell were actually hard content now, this would be a tremendous difference that would make me chose a different tank for sure, were I the raidleader.
This is what I am talking about, so thank you for the WWS proving my point on a fight that should be our strength because he is fast.


This will remain exactly the same in WOTLK even with the additional reduced 3% damage that is not in your log(if it were there, it'd be still 2-3k higher burst). SB scales more than that, so the warrior advantage actually increases. I know it is popular here to ignore shieldblock against such burst, but that doesn't reflect a real fight. Warriors do not spam shieldblock on cooldown like mindless machines. They save it for burst.


Conclusion: We maybe take less damage on average. We take more dangerous burst. In other words: We're easier to heal in easy situations, and harder to heal in hard ones.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:29 am

Macha wrote:Take your data, it proves my point.
You: Highest damage 12k
Warrior: Highest damage 11k

Different guilds, different gear levels.

Their pally has better gar than me, and is in the same raid, with the same mitigation debuffs. Their pally takes a max hit of 8.5k.

You're simply wrong. You can't compare across different raids.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:40 am

Knaughty wrote:We beg to differ. I don't think you can compare across different raids.


would have been a lot nicer
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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:50 am

Im kinda surprised by those whinning here are some of the very old tankadins

Realy about damage taken , WOLTK will not be like TBC where gruul , prince and NB could hit for a SHITLOAD on a tank, bosses will deal less damage in WOLTK so big deal

About threat/dps , realy threat does not matter as long as people can't agroo over you and people don't give shit about tank dps at a boss ( this after talking with people in my guild including several officers and our gm/raid leader )

So people in general won't give a shit about the stuff you guys seem whinning about , if you however feel you don't belong in a raid in Wrath due to the issues then you should have never rolled a prot pala , we where ALOT shittier in TBC damage taken wise and threat wise , let alone dps wise
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:57 am

Bobness wrote:
Knaughty wrote:We beg to differ. I don't think you can compare across different raids.


would have been a lot nicer

I'm tired of being nice to people who go:

We suck

No we don't.

Prove it!

Theorycraft

Theorycraft doesn't count

WWS Parse

Contrived and incorrect analysis

*sigh*

We suck!


There are certain people in this forum who are like "Young Earth Creationists" - they're decided we suck, and even when presented with evidence we don't suck refuse to acknowledge it exists because it doesn't fit with their world-view.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:09 am

Bobness wrote:
Knaughty wrote:We beg to differ. I don't think you can compare across different raids.


would have been a lot nicer


To expand, here's a shortened version of my post where Macha got the parse.

Knaughty wrote:Here's one where the warrior used shield block every stomp.

• Warrior average hit: 4,505
• Paladin average hit: 4,437

Paladin had:
• Substantially smaller max hit (10.5k to warrior, 8.1k on the pally).


His response was to then take a different parse, with me in it, and "prove" we're inferior by showing that my max hit was more that the warriors max hit, when the actual post I linked showed a paladin getting hit for less.

ZOMG! Paladin in worse gear in a different raid with less damage mitigation debuffs takes more damage. News at 11.

http://wowwebstats.com/zhuzb61hygqk1?s=105057-129148
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:15 am

Last point, before I give this thread up as a bad job and go to bed:

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My max hit is 2.5% bigger than the bear's max hit. Of course.... I've got 3% mitigation still to come in 3.0.3, or so I believe. Shield of the Templar 3% isn't live.

We take less damage overall, and same or less burst once the 3% goes in. Mitigation QQ is just wrong.
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Postby Rhî » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:24 am

Io.Draco wrote:Im kinda surprised by those whinning here are some of the very old tankadins

Realy about damage taken , WOLTK will not be like TBC where gruul , prince and NB could hit for a SHITLOAD on a tank, bosses will deal less damage in WOLTK so big deal

About threat/dps , realy threat does not matter as long as people can't agroo over you and people don't give shit about tank dps at a boss ( this after talking with people in my guild including several officers and our gm/raid leader )

So people in general won't give a shit about the stuff you guys seem whinning about , if you however feel you don't belong in a raid in Wrath due to the issues then you should have never rolled a prot pala , we where ALOT shittier in TBC damage taken wise and threat wise , let alone dps wise


As almost always, people can have a valid point and are wrong at the same time.
You are right, the protection paladin in LK is in better shape than the protection paladin was in TBC.
And you are right, that at the moment nobody cares about differences in mitigation, dps and tps.
Don't be too sure, that this won't change. At the moment every content is far beyond triviality. And Naxxramas and the other starting raid content won't be a true challenge. And Blizzard meant, there won't be a second sunwell.
But there comes a time, small differences will make the difference. There will be raid content challenging us to the last percent. And at that time, we will be second choice again, if that not already happened earlier in Naxxramas. Because it seems, that every raidcommunity is generous at the moment, not laying weight on these small differences, this isn't a guarantee, that this will hold. And I'm not convinced that this behavior remains. If there is a tank, that is doing more dps and tps and also take less damage, than the raid communities will start again favoring this one tank.

It's dangerous to be the suboptimal choice in almost every aspect. Please can anyone tell me, where we are without restrictions the 'better' tank?

Although I admit, that we are almost on par in mitigation terms. The only thing that troubles my mind there is the scaling potencial of shield block + critical block and our big Healthpool disadvantage at the beginning.

They are hotfixing the shit out of us, because of ret balance. Some other specs were OP almost complete TBC and nothing happened.
They are not hotfixing our big bugs like Divine Guardian. And they are not hotfixing Arcane Mages, which are as dangerous as rets.

Paladins seems to have a special role and a special treatment by the devs. And not in a truely good way.

This is, what really bother me. GC is very communicative, but his words are vague, and while, as vague as he speaks, he was able to contradict himself. And not only in the things he has said, also the things he said differs from the things the devs are doing.

An at last, their work in the last few weeks regarding the paladin class shows a scary lack of knowledge. These so called ret nerfs were at every time in reality paladin nerfs (the best thing or worst thing, they hit not rets at all). And yet up to day there is no compensation than the vague promise there could be any. Their decisions are weird and they speak with forked tongue.

If the story wouldn't be that great and epic...
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Postby caboom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:25 am

Knaughty wrote:Last point, before I give this thread up as a bad job and go to bed:

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My max hit is 2.5% bigger than the bear's max hit. Of course.... I've got 3% mitigation still to come in 3.0.3, or so I believe. Shield of the Templar 3% isn't live.

We take less damage overall, and same or less burst once the 3% goes in. Mitigation QQ is just wrong.


Negativists will always say they suck, optimists will always think they rock, i will just pretend to be a normal guy and be about my tanking. ;)
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