Remove Advertisements

Now that AW causes forbearance again

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby baghead » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:42 am

Knaughty wrote:I take 4,396. Bear takes 4,710. Not that I was prioritising DPS moves over Holy Shield, (other than when Stomp is up) because the damage is trivial, so 6 unblocked hits get through. Average damage drops to 4,273 if you prioritise HS over nuking Brute.

I'm no bear guru, but isn't there's something wrong when your bear's avoidance is barely higher than yours?

However, I'll concede that the bear took more damage per hit from a fast hitter (which is pretty much how bears work).

Do you have a warrior parse at all?
baghead
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:10 am

Postby elfjorc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:44 am

baghead wrote:
Knaughty wrote:I take 4,396. Bear takes 4,710. Not that I was prioritising DPS moves over Holy Shield, (other than when Stomp is up) because the damage is trivial, so 6 unblocked hits get through. Average damage drops to 4,273 if you prioritise HS over nuking Brute.

I'm no bear guru, but isn't there's something wrong when your bear's avoidance is barely higher than yours?

However, I'll concede that the bear took more damage per hit from a fast hitter (which is pretty much how bears work).

Do you have a warrior parse at all?


Diminishing returns on avoidance and bears only have dodge?
Image
User avatar
elfjorc
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Auckland

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:44 am

As every other "emergency button", unless you are tanking Attumen or any other trivial boss that a clothie can tank, SB will always be "worth saving".
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13295
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby baghead » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:45 am

elfjorc wrote:The way I see it, it's always worth saving. Even if you don't have a predictable timer, using it randomly as soon as it cools down won't help you when you need help, which is when deaths happen.

This is what trinkets/last stand/shield wall are for, not SB. Again, unless the fight rewards saving it (eg. a fast hitter like brutallus) the actual damage reduced is tiny in those few seconds.

If you're getting hit for 30% of your HP (8-10K per hit), is blocking for 2K versus 1K really going to help that much?
baghead
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:10 am

Postby Bobness » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:45 am

Knaughty wrote:I bet my lunch money I take less damage that equivalently equipped warriors and bears... because I do, and I've read the WWS parses that prove it, and linked one.


Which is fine... we block more damage on average for an encounter that is extinct in 10 days & this relates to the future in what way ?
Image
Bobness
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:42 pm

Postby elfjorc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:48 am

baghead wrote:
elfjorc wrote:The way I see it, it's always worth saving. Even if you don't have a predictable timer, using it randomly as soon as it cools down won't help you when you need help, which is when deaths happen.

This is what trinkets/last stand/shield wall are for, not SB. Again, unless the fight rewards saving it (eg. a fast hitter like brutallus) the actual damage reduced is tiny in those few seconds.

If you're getting hit for 30% of your HP (8-10K per hit), is blocking for 2K versus 1K really going to help that much?


That's why I edited and added stuff in. It's not a tool that can deal with omg i must avoid a hit and ill die situations, it's a tool that helps in hmmm there's something going on and i think a bit of extra reinforcement might help.

IDK, that's just my opinion. Let's just say if you were to give me Shield Block as a pally, I would simply not spam it every cooldown. Unless I'm lazy and don't really care or it's a boss like Rage where there's just no way I'm going to die. And in those situations I might just save it for a damage buff so I can do more Shield Slam damage/threat anyways.
Image
User avatar
elfjorc
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Auckland

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:56 am

Blocking for 1k more isn't necessarly going to save you.

But BEING SURE to block for that 2k (and eventually 4k) instead of taking unmitigated hits is a good way to help surviving if you don't want to waste SW / LS
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13295
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:57 am

baghead wrote:
Worldie wrote:Note: i don't know how other warriors tank, but when i play my warrior, i save SB if for some reason i get a streak of unmitigated hits and fall low in HP, or if i want a burst of threat. I'm not spamming SB on every CD.

But isn't this the whole debate worldie?

When SB is worth saving it blocks more damage overall saving it than spamming it. (ie. for burst damage encounters). When it's not worth saving, blocks more incoming damage overall on average than saving it.


Baghead, got another on for you:

http://wowwebstats.com/1nt6fugrz5qca?s= ... &a=x7422f9

Here's one where the warrior used shield block every stomp.

• Warrior average hit: 4,505
• Paladin average hit: 4,437

Difference is pretty much the fact that HS beats SB, even on a fight where there's a mini-enrage and SB was use to soak it. Total damage meaningless, because pally tanked for less time, but:

Paladin had:
• More damage blocked.
• Higher avoidance,
• Smaller average hit,
• Substantially smaller max hit (10.5k to warrior, 8.1k on the pally).

Parse if from a Top 50 fight, from a guild that killed KJ back in June, so you can assume that both pally and warrior are in perfect gear and pretty skilled.

What more do you want?
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:04 am

baghead wrote:I'm no bear guru, but isn't there's something wrong when your bear's avoidance is barely higher than yours?

My gear is optimised for Twins so it has avoidance out the wazoo.

Bear is optimised for humanoids, so he has as much dodge as possible.

End result is we both have similar avoidance.

Neither of us bother to re-gem for 3.0.
baghead wrote:However, I'll concede that the bear took more damage per hit from a fast hitter (which is pretty much how bears work).

Do you have a warrior parse at all?

My one's expired, due to WWS having a new 15-day timer, but it was veru similar - I took less dam than warrior. Found one a post or two up, pally is just barely ahead, on a fight that is basically a perfect case for Shield Block being OP.

Note that my parse where I took less damage than warrior was before the extra -3% went in.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:07 am

Oh, and I'm wearing double stamina trinkets so I don't have to use nightmare seeds for stomp, I just tank them "nude".

Also... bears can't parry. Of course I have higher avoidance if I gear the same way.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:08 am

One thing which you should note however Knaughty is that Brutallus is a fast hitter. Paladins are naturally better on a fast hitter

You would get relatively better data if you compared damage taken on Felmyst or Entropius.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13295
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Grimmal » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:24 am

Need i remind you of his "surgical" comments just before he nerfed the whole damn class in order to nerf ret? Grow up... you're just as bad as us "QQers" with your googly eyes and Blizzard worship.


I'd argue that he and others like him are actually worse. While some of us may be going overboard with our QQ and doom and gloom at times, they go the opposite direction and are willing to completely ignore it with the belief that Blizzard will fix it (or actually just brag about how they tanked thru the 'hard' times already). One set gets things done even if it is at times in the worst way possible, the other just wants to brag about how long they have been a tank and will keep putting up with however much is shovelled down their throats.

If you haven't picked up on it by now, GC is full of shit. He posts half truths and evasions, spins legitimate posts away from the topic by responding to trolls and locking them, and is only really giving us damage control. And it isn't even good damage control.

Take a look at his recent posts as far as Holy goes for prime examples of what I'm talking about.
User avatar
Grimmal
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Aman'Thul

Postby elfjorc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:27 am

Grimmal wrote:
Need i remind you of his "surgical" comments just before he nerfed the whole damn class in order to nerf ret? Grow up... you're just as bad as us "QQers" with your googly eyes and Blizzard worship.


I'd argue that he and others like him are actually worse. While some of us may be going overboard with our QQ and doom and gloom at times, they go the opposite direction and are willing to completely ignore it with the belief that Blizzard will fix it (or actually just brag about how they tanked thru the 'hard' times already). One set gets things done even if it is at times in the worst way possible, the other just wants to brag about how long they have been a tank and will keep putting up with however much is shovelled down their throats.

If you haven't picked up on it by now, GC is full of shit. He posts half truths and evasions, spins legitimate posts away from the topic by responding to trolls and locking them, and is only really giving us damage control. And it isn't even good damage control.

Take a look at his recent posts as far as Holy goes for prime examples of what I'm talking about.


Le sigh.
Image
User avatar
elfjorc
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Auckland

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:36 am

Worldie wrote:One thing which you should note however Knaughty is that Brutallus is a fast hitter. Paladins are naturally better on a fast hitter

You would get relatively better data if you compared damage taken on Felmyst or Entropius.


He hits fast, but he also hits hard.

He also has stomp.

So I'd actually say he's best case for paladins (fast hits) and best case for warriors (stomp + SB).

Under "dual best case" warrior / paladin come out close to even. My data shows me slightly ahead of warrior and noticeably ahead of a bear. All with similar gear, as we're in the same guild.

There won't be better data (from me) because we're only doing Sunwell one more time, and most likely I'll just tank everything again.

The only way to get it would be to do back-to-back M'uru and deliberately wipe at 10% Phase 2, using diff tanks for each attempt. Pass.

And to be blunt, Brute is the best data you're going to get. Kalec is no good because of the 10% enrage. Brute's enrage is a wipe even in nerfwell, so it doesn't come into it (and the fight is 3 mins or less).

But seriously:

(1) GC says warriors and paladins are within 1% of each other.

(2) Theory-craft mitigation says the same.

(3) I've presented two parses that show our mitigation is very good, one mine, one from a "farming Sunwell for four months" guild. Both parse show paladin ahead of bears when they should be, and marginally ahead of warriors on a fight that's good for both classes.

(4) I've claimed that I have an expired parse that shows me ahead of our guild warrior MT, from before the 3% mitigation buff. Believe me or not as it suits, but every other thing I've claimed I've backed up.

(5) As Worldie pointed out earlier, with lower avoidance at 80 and passive uncrush being a dream, balance shifts towards paladin.

TL;DR: Paladin mitigation is excellent, exactly where GC said it would be. He kept his promise. He's promised to fix the acknowledged issues we have. Stow the damn whining.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:48 am

Katamai wrote:
Knaughty wrote:<amazing bunch of self-deceit and Blizzard fanboy dribble>


Yeh, it's all peachy. All hail GC, the guy who calls us collateral dmg after nerfing us due to the way he and his team balance ret.

Get a grip and stop being a blind Blizzard zealot who believes everything they say. GC said this, GC said that... well guess what? GC says a lot of things and then changes stories.

Need i remind you of his "surgical" comments just before he nerfed the whole damn class in order to nerf ret? Grow up... you're just as bad as us "QQers" with your googly eyes and Blizzard worship.


Go read the WWS parses I posted. Seriously go read them. Right now, we're fucking peachy for mitigation, and it gets better when we level to 80 and everyone loses avoidance but we keep uncrushable or close to it.

It's real simple. I'll use short words for you, since you're apparently a bit slow, as well as being a whiner.

(1) The mitigation pass is complete. Mitigation is a long word for "how much hurt the tank takes when the nasty boss hits him".

(2) GC said "mitigation will be even".

(3) Mitigation is even.

GC told the truth! ZOMG! Fuck me! A blizzard dev who actually kept a promise!

(A) Threat and damage pass for tanks is not done yet.

(B) GC said "DPS/TPS will be comparable".

He's one for one (for us) so far. Why assume he's lying?

Seriously, how is claiming that our mitigation is fine "self deceit" when I actually have WWS parse that show it is fine - where "fine" is defined as "best in game of the available three tanks on a fight that suits us".
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest