Venting thread

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Venting thread

Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:29 pm

Since i'm guessing i'm not the only one pissed off by latest nerfs we got (as well as being called "collateral damage"), how about making this a venting thread?

Would probably be better suited in the Asylum but since people will feel this crap hitting them in Wrath, i thought it wouldn't hurt to put it here, rather than having people (me included :P) go emo in different threads.

Frid, Worldie, Lore... Hammer this one if you think it's pointless... i sure know a couple paladins that will visit this thread, that's for sure :P

If we had an official QQ thread, maybe we could have less of it in random threads.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:42 pm

We do have a official QQ threat, and it's in General as the frustration topic.

As long as tones are civil i'm not going to kill anyone ranting about ret nerfs backfiring on prot in that topic.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:51 pm

Ah oki... gonna take my frustrations there then ^_^
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Postby Kracus » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:28 pm

I'm finally pass the flying off the handle and just keep holding on to their "promise" of making us just as viable and keep watching them fumble around in the dark.

All I know is I'm going to keep loving my pally no matter what.
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Postby Katamai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:46 pm

If i ever reroll i will be kicking myself in the teeth that i spent 650+ runs in Strat trying to get Katamai on Baron's mount >.<

I sure as hell am not going to do it for my warrior (even though it's much easier to get it now than it was for Kat).
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:52 pm

Let's be honest, most of us won't reroll.

Personally I love my Paladin. She's exalted with Hydraxian to show you how long I've had her. It's also a bittersweet feeling that Bliz continues to make her feel like a martyr. I don't want Paladins to be weaker than class X or spec Y but if I am, somehow the fact that Paladins have always been weaker takes the sting out of that. Y'know, Modus Operandi.
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Postby Andryana » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:11 pm

Again what's frustrating is that they don't hesitate to nerf the entire class because of lvl 70 BG QQ, could you imagine how warriors would feel if Prot was nerfed because Arms warriors were two shotting people? Because that's what just happened to us.

And hotfixing nerfs? If it was game-breaking nerfs all fine and dandy, but wow are we so broken that we need to be hotfixed? Can't it wait until the patch?
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:27 pm

I know it sounds a little like paranoia, but at some point you've gotta say - maybe we're not imagining things.

I'm not suggesting that 'blizzard hates us' but perhaps there is some unwritten rule in blizz HQ that 'pallys will never be allowed to be a better dps/tank' because of X.

I'm not going to suggest what X is, but if you were to look back in the history of the game, they've outright lied to us in bliz posts while still maintain the above. (It may even be a non-obvious/intuitive valid reason)

You also have to ask yourself another question. If they've lied directly to us in the past, why are we suddenly believing them now? I'm not suggesting they are out to hate on us, etc etc, but maybe there is some reason they feel they need to keep us nerfed. For example, the comment in blizzcon (paraphrased as "or else everyone would be playing a prot pally" was very sobering for me).

I do hope that prot pallys (and pallys in general) are fixed for wrath but I no longer have any faith.
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Postby tullock » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:02 pm

I love my Paladin, i have stuck with him through thick and thin, he was my first toon in march of 05 when i bought the game, and in two weeks my highest level alt will be a freshly minted deathknight for gathering. I will not reroll, if they break my paladin to the point where i can no longer get any fun or satisfaction playing him, then blizzard loses my 15 dollars a month. Im not there yet, but really, i think that hinges more on how much i like the people i play with than being happy with what blizzard is doing to my class.

Stop nerfing me because you percieve ret as being overpowered! You dont have to test whether lowering sov/jov damage will affect my threat. You would have to be drooling on your keyboard to not know that lowering my damage will lower my threat. If, there is a problem with ret, then you nerf ret, its that fucking simple! Im tired of the backhanded uncalled for nerfs...
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Postby Tev » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:06 pm

This is the general feeling I have as well, I've lost hope. Right now my pally as prot feels awesome... but I have this strong nagging sence that at some point, thier math for what they have done to us will go 1 of 2 ways.

1, we are considered overpowered in some area of tanking that they feel that they need to nerf, and in doing so completely destroy the viability of paladins as a tank (at least when you have 3 other options available). 2, we encounter some persistent glaring issue that cripples us as tanks, but they keep putting it on the back burner, or give us empty promises, all the while pally tanks sit out on specific encounters because they cannot fulfill their role without massive overcompensation on the raids part.

Lets face it, there is a ton of ret pally hate going around and the backlash to all paladins is staggering. I liked ret for a while, but I love prot. Yet after all the changes I just can't stomach playing ret any more, it feels too much like a beaten dead horse. And prot, though powerful, gives me this feeling that the proverbial "within 2%" only applies if we are trailing 2%, not ahead (2% ahead would warrant a change I'm willing to bet).

I want prot on par with other tanks (not 2% behind), I want Ret within 5% (did anyone else notice the retraction of this figure from GCs posts?) of Pure DPS classes and on par with other hybrid DPS, not 10% or more behind. I want what was promised and they fail at delivery.
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Postby uke » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:34 pm

Hey, here's a thought:

How about chill the heck out and see what develops? A quick perusal of the bluetracker posts have a plethora of posts from GC this weekend addressing a wide range of topics. Most notably that no nerfs/buffs they've made are set in stone and will be changed if it's too far in one or another direction.

Or, you could just run around (like usual) going "OMG Blizzard hates paladins!" while wearing your tinfoil hats and shouting "conspiracy!"

A couple of nice posts from GC just this weekend:

3) Where were our desperately needed hot fix buffs for the past two years? Is this new insta-balance stance going to swing both ways?
We made a lot of big changes to classes for LK and we need to able to adjust them as needed. I honestly wasn't doing this job for the past two years, so I'm not in a position to comment on why certain decisions were made the way they were. I have faith they were made for good reasons, but I just can't share them with you because I don't know. I will say that the perception around Blizzard was that the Ret paladin situation was very severe. I don't want to understate it. It was considered one of the most egregious balance problems we've had in some time.

Retribution Paladin
We LOVE Ret paladins. Seriously. We made a ton of changes to the spec that we wouldn't have done if we didn't care what happened to the class. When we did Naxx tests and people brought Ret paladins, it was great. Even before they became overpowered, there were several posts by Ret pallies saying how they liked the changes to their class (so I don't think it was just an issue that they were rolling over everyone that made them fun).

Sadly, you were overpowered by a considerable margin in both PvE and PvP. That was our fault (mine really) and not anything the community did. Most Ret pallies actually seem to agree they were OP and only argue with the magnitude of the nerfs.

TL;DR - stop assuming the worst. The days of no feedback and no needed changes for a year are gone. I'd hope the entire beta process these past 5-ish months would have shown that.
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:11 pm

I don't think it would entirely disingenuous to suggest that reality and what GC posts rarely intersect. He may be posting in good faith but he is rarely accurate.
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Postby tbolt » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:36 pm

"close enough" and "wait and see" seem to be the motto they're going with for our class. Every time that we seem to be catching up or heaven forbid surpassing the rest, they push us back down and slap us with a you guys are "close enough."
Are we inferior to the other tanks? No we're "close enough" and is class mechanic X broken? Maybe so let's "wait and see" but it's a good thing we're "close enough" so that we can still do the job until someone better can do it.

Seriously though it's amazing how we're inferior in every aspect in which they tell us we're close enough. It maybe a small weakness or a big one but as long as we're close enough, for those of us who love the class, to keep pushing forward I don't think they're really going to put in any major fixes. It seems like the class design behind paladins is to be forever kept in mediocrity. I'd love to see how the warriors would deal with it if they had lower threat and mitigation but were told it's good enough because its only a few percent lower than what we have according to blizz testing.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:21 pm

baghead wrote:I know it sounds a little like paranoia, but at some point you've gotta say - maybe we're not imagining things.

I'm not suggesting that 'blizzard hates us' but perhaps there is some unwritten rule in blizz HQ that 'pallys will never be allowed to be a better dps/tank' because of X.

I don't think it's really THAT. I think it's basically a matter of design priority. Warriors certainly appear to be, and always have been, #1. The gear was itemized for them, the encounters designed around them, and if a Warrior couldn't do or use it, it was designed wrong. Until we made it clear how our mechanics favored slow weapons, we were set up to be using subpar stuff. We know this, because the stuff was already itemized. Their teams already know what Warriors like, so in Naxx, Slayer of the Lifeless was available long before our mechanic was fixed.

It's not that they hate Paladins, imo. I think we're just not the first on the list, and not necessarily second, either. They certainly want to make the tanking classes equal, and that's a great goal, but let's be realistic. Priority number one is a game that works. We know Warriors work. They've been working for years now, and they didn't get any sweeping mechanics change. When designing new encounters, they would use a Warrior. Heck, back in the earlier stages of beta (perhaps Alpha?) the developers said the Warrior "niche" is tanking slow, hard hitting single mobs. It wasn't until it was clearly stated that this was the definition of a main tank before they moved away from it.

So even though their goal is to make us all equal main tanks, their subconcious thoughts were still telling them that Warriors are the "real tanks." They were trying to create a niche for us, and obviously that didn't work. I was pretty sure I was taking my Pally into WotLK after finally creating an argument for using a Paladin tank in general, but now these recent Ret "fixes" have me scared, and I may get cold feet. I'd love to stick with the Paladin I have with his bear mount, TF, and the achievements I'm in the process of grinding out, but the security of knowing I'll always be better than or equal to (in the worst case) the other tanks, and never having to explain why I should tank may win out in the end. I suppose I still have ten days or so to decide.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:54 pm

The mere fact that Modus, Worldi, myself, and others who have been long term paladins through some of the worst times is indicative of the state of paladins and the recent changes.

Frankly, we're fed up.
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