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My opinions on completing the prot tree

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My opinions on completing the prot tree

Postby Magnusharkov » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:25 am

Just what you have all been desperately waiting to here, another rambling post full of overpowered Prot ideas. Well apologies in advance but this is just some stuff I've been thinking about for a while, hopefully someone out there will read it and find it interesting but mainly this is just an excuse for me to get some thoughts down on paper.

I'm a prot paladin who's tanked everything up to Felmyst and cleared T6 multiple times pre patch. I'm also a raid leader and our guilds tanking officer. So although my opinions are slightly biased and I can't say I have seen all TBC content I feel I have a reasonable awareness of how the tanking classes fit together and I don't think I'm radically out of line in some of the changes suggested.

Problem 1 - The damage/threat dilemma

Now, this is an issue that has been brought up many times but I still haven't seen a blizzard poster acknowledge it. We have the highest threat modifier in the game, therefore if all tanks are designed to output the same threat levels then we are logically going to be doing the least damage. It's not confirmed whether blizzard considers this to be an issue or not but due to their silence on the matter it feels like to them this is an acceptable balance issue due to us being superior aoe tanks.

I feel this problem can be fixed in 2 ways. Firstly lower our threat modifier on holy damage to say 60% and boost all our holy damage to compensate. While this would work I feel it would be a slightly clunky solution and would require a lot of overpowered deep prot damage talents and a lot of rebalancing.
The second solution is to drastically increase our single target white damage, this may sound a bit goofy but I believe this would be a better and simpler overall solution.

Right now ignoring innate threat modifiers (because I dont know a lot about them anymore) a paladin will only be producing the same TPS and the same DPS as a warrior if 50% of his damage comes from white attacks and 50% comes from holy. While this is design is technically possible I think its safe to say that blizzard is unlikely to do anything to drastically boost our white damage that much for it to be balanced.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Paladin white damage is buffed somehow so that it contributes 40% of our total single target damage output, this is a big leap but I believe its still within the realms of being believable. Then lets look at some maths to see how that compares to a warrior. For the sake of making this simple I'm ignoring baked in salv and innate threat modifiers, the latter would effect this quite a bit but I don't know enough about them while the former can be dropped from discussion as it effects everything equally.

A warrior does 3000 DPS. With his 1.45 threat modifier he is doing 4350 TPS

A paladin is doing exactly the same TPS as the warrior - 4350 TPS. Assume 60% of the damage he does is holy and 40% is white damage. This works out to roughly 1695 holy DPS and 1130 white DPS which totals 2825 DPS.

If this was the current state of prot DPS/TPS then I genuinely wouldn't have a problem with it. If we could do the same threat as warriors and 90% of the DPS of warriors then I think we are absolutely fine, as chances are we are doing a fair chunk more damage on AoE fights which kind of balances out (Note I don't have any data for this, it's just my guess).

Problem 2 - Ret pvp issues interfering with prot

This is a really annoying one. Firstly we have the fact that our consecrate, seal and judgements spells now do less damage than they did pre patch, despite the fact we have gained a ton of AP, Spellpower and JotC. This doesn't necessarily have to be a problem if other damage abilities are changed to compensate but right now this is frustrating.

Secondly we have our lovely Avenging Wrath more or less removed from us for progression content as it locks out our shield wall (And also buggily procs Divine Guardian, rendering this talent useless). As we all know this is completely unacceptable for a main tank and needs to be fixed ASAP.

Thirdly we have our mythical PROT 11 point talent being a proposed RETRIBUTION pvp balance fix. I won't elaborate here.

Problem 3 - Duff talents in the prot tree.

Currently I'd say we have 2 main weak talents in our tree. Which would be Reckoning and Judgements of the Just. Reckoning is no longer that useful now that SoV is our primary threat seal and so needs a little boost. Judgements of the Just isn't a bad talent, I just feel its a little underbudget for a Tier 10 talent and would benefit from some kind of associated damage boost aspect.

Problem 4 - Single target taunt

Such a minor thing and so easy to fix. We need to be able to taunt a single target so that prot paladins can work together in pairs without playing mob ping pong and so that fights like Gothik and Four Horseman are doable without really dumb workarounds.

Problem 5 - 2 tanking blessings in prot

We haven't moaned about this one for a while but I still feel it's an issue. I don't like having to choose between sanctuary and kings and it feels wrong having 2 talented blessings in one tree.

Problem 6 - Still could do with some more 'Fun' stuff

This is entirely subjective but I still feel like we missed out on some more deep prot 'fun' stuff and that we don't have as many situational reactive abilities to fall back on as other tanks.

Problem 7 - Weak block scaling

Based on looking at our Tier set and from reading blizzards intentions paladin's are designed to be the superior 'block' tank. But currently with critical block and shield block warriors scale better with block rating and block value gear. For paladins additional block rating passed a certain point is wasted and we also lack block value multipliers that warriors have.
Last edited by Magnusharkov on Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Magnusharkov » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:25 am

My Proposed Changes

Here's how I would change the prot tree, note a lot of these are stolen from various places:

Skill adjustment - Righteous Defense
When cast on a creature causes that creature to attack the paladin, when cast on an ally taunts 3 random mobs attacking that ally.

Skill adjustment - Divine Protection
Can be cast under forebearance, shares cooldown with Divine Shield. Requires a shield.

New 11 pt talent - Blessed Armor
Gives you a chance equal to your current block rating to reduce incoming magical damage for 50% of your current block value. Requires a shield. Also increases your intellect by 0.5% of your Armor Value.
Improves prot's ability to tank magical damage, also improves PvP as Prot and situationally helps Holy and Ret PvP. Helps out with soloing/dps as prot and ret by improving their mana bar.

Adjusted Blessing of Sanctuary - Aura of Sanctuary
Your auras now also provide the sanctuary buff, reducing damage taken by 3% and when a tank blocks/dodges/parries blah blah blah...
No more having to choose between kings and sanctuary. Also 1 less paladin required in a raid.

Adjusted Reckoning
'Gives a 3/6/9/12/15% chance for your melee swings to proc reckoning. Under reckoning the next 4 melee swings within 8 seconds will generate an extra attack. These additional attacks cannot be parried, do not trigger seals and cannot proc reckoning.'
Fixes inverse reckoning scaling and improves prot white dps by roughly 50%ish (knapkin maths). Helps balance out threat/dps issues.

Adjusted Holy Shield
Same as before plus duration increased to 30 seconds, cooldown remains at 8 seconds. In addition any 'unused' block rating % is converted into an equivalent % block value increase.
Idea stolen from elitist jerks but a longer duration would make our rotations a lot more flexible and interesting and less like a Pre 3.0 shield block. The block rating -> block value part would be a tricky one to explain in a tooltip but would help our block scaling, particularly with redoubt.

Adjusted Avenger's Shield
Cooldown reduced to 18 seconds, daze effect reduced from 10 seconds to 3. 3 second silence/interrupt effect added.
Reduced cooldown lets you properly integrate avenger's shield into your rotations and feels a lot more 'fun'. Silence effect when combined with hammer of justice lets us passably handle interrupts plus lets us reasonably position casters. Also a pvp buff.

Adjusted Judgements of the Just
Reduces attack speed by 10/20%. Also increases seal/judgement damage by 10/20%.
Not a very interesting change but it would be nice to cancel out the ret based damage nerfs. Also makes this a more useful levelling/OT talent.

Adjusted Hammer of the Righteous
In addition also increases your attack power by 200% of your weapon's DPS.
Just a little extra something to make it very clear to prot paladins that you no longer want to be using spellpower weapons for threat


Anyway, if you got that far thanks for reading, I don't really expect any meaningful feedback, I just wanted to get some ideas down on paper just as an exercise. And yeah if all of these changes went in we would almost certainly be overpowered.
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Postby Ashmadai » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:38 am

I think all your ideas are pretty terrific. Now go get Blizzard to implement them. =P
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Postby Riss » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:54 pm

Adjusted Blessing of Sanctuary - Aura of Sanctuary
Your auras now also provide the sanctuary buff, reducing damage taken by 3% and when a tank blocks/dodges/parries blah blah blah...
No more having to choose between kings and sanctuary. Also 1 less paladin required in a raid.


I love you, changing this to an aura solves that really well.
Not to mention the rest of your post(s). I think you have some very sound ideas. Someone with a beta account!! Repost this for GC!
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Postby Panzerdin » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:44 pm

Perfect. May tilt things too far towards Prot Paladins, but hey; if what goes around comes around, it's about time it came around.

As others have said, make them implement it already.
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Postby Noobgetier » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:41 pm

They are looking at the dps issue ( and so on the threat). Time will show it.
Last edited by Noobgetier on Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby baghead » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:11 pm

Riss wrote:
Adjusted Blessing of Sanctuary - Aura of Sanctuary
Your auras now also provide the sanctuary buff, reducing damage taken by 3% and when a tank blocks/dodges/parries blah blah blah...
No more having to choose between kings and sanctuary. Also 1 less paladin required in a raid.


I love you, changing this to an aura solves that really well.
Not to mention the rest of your post(s). I think you have some very sound ideas. Someone with a beta account!! Repost this for GC!

The other tanks don't need BoSanct. BoSanct should be rolled into an innate ability to solve the mana problem for prot pallys. This would give pallys a small flat. This 3% combined with SotT would give pallys a 2% flat mitigation bonus that would balance the lower starting HP.
(even then, with two prot warriors who vigilance each other, they would still have a flat 1% mitigation advantage),

IMHO it's insane that a prot pally buff does more for the other tanks than for the prot pally themselves. For example, a warrior on a single mob (let alone a boss) can almost tape down their heroic strike key constantly with the glyph of revenge and Sword/Board procs. With BoSanct they literally are hard pressed to spend their rage on trash mobs, let alone bosses.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:28 am

I dig Aura of Sanctuary, it's a good idea..
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