A Radically Simple Idea

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Postby Darus » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:54 pm

Sarutankah wrote:
Darus wrote:SOLUTION: All damage done while divine shield/divine protection is active is reduced by 20%


Not enough.


Immunity and still bursting a decent amount of damage = OP.



And to add on to Modus's comment - my mate has a druid and Starfire (or whatever it is) /cyclone/starfire eats me for breakfast, let alone he can stationarily tank me with my weak gear lol.


the entire problem was DS+AW combined effect and solving the problem should be negating the effect from AW or making the abilities non-stackable.

On the other hand like a few people said, normal dps with divine shield active might still be too powerfull. This issue should somehow been addressed in a better form.

For example making us unable to perform instant melee attacks while DS is active and making DP into the prefered oh-shit-button in PVP for a balanced combat. Just like warriors are using shieldwall + recklessness/retaliation in arenas.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:24 pm

Sarutankah wrote:
Darus wrote:SOLUTION: All damage done while divine shield/divine protection is active is reduced by 20%


Not enough.


Immunity and still bursting a decent amount of damage = OP.



And to add on to Modus's comment - my mate has a druid and Starfire (or whatever it is) /cyclone/starfire eats me for breakfast, let alone he can stationarily tank me with my weak gear lol.


You can tweak the numbers, but a 20% damage reduction during the bubble is likely a nerf from the TBC days when there was no damage reduction during a bubble and just the autoattack speed change. I really doubt it would be OP, and it would be a complete waste of popping wings which essentially would be cancelled out by the damage reduction.
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Postby Sarutankah » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:04 pm

Nah - it still creates a 100% damage while immune effect if you bubble and wrath at the same time, Holy needs them to be independant of eachother imo but take away a bigger chunk of damage and make it totally defensive and I think it will still suck for all paladins.


:o


[edited by Worldie - disagreeing is ok, but excessive caps + vulgar language is not]
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Postby Elsie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:55 am

Exactly what stops a rogue from using evasion, cloak of shadows, blade flurry, and adrenaline rush all at the same time and refresh most of them under 5 minutes?

Okay, "rogues don't get plate." My bad. I thought that's why they get, yknow, vanish, cheap shot, poison, ms, ghost strike, tons of agility on gear...

Besides, it's not like any other class can stack cooldowns. A shaman certainly can't shamanistic rage and bloodlust. I'd really laugh if a mage could have Improved Blink and Arcane Power up at the same time! Besides, druids can't even summon treants within 3 minutes of using Innervate or Owlkin Frenzy procs.


...Stacking defensive with offensive utility is nothing new. Only paladins have forbearance because Divine Shield is too strong. Break it up into Divine Protection, Divine Shield, and Hand of Protection.
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Postby luminae » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:52 am

it's being able to attack while immune to damage that breaks it, elsie. if a mage could attack through iceblock, we'd be screaming too.
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Postby Macha » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:35 am

Rogues can't attack when popping evasion or cloak of shadows?
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Postby luminae » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:10 am

Macha wrote:Rogues can't attack when popping evasion or cloak of shadows?


doesn't make them IMMUNE
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:56 am

Sarutankah wrote:Nah - it still creates a 100% damage while immune effect if you bubble and wrath at the same time, Holy needs them to be independant of eachother imo but take away a bigger chunk of damage and make it totally defensive and I think it will still suck for all paladins.


:o


[edited by Worldie - disagreeing is ok, but excessive caps + vulgar language is not]


Yeah of course it does, but then you've wasted your wings and any other time you bubble you are doing even less. We still want skills and choices involved, yes?
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:00 am

luminae wrote:
Macha wrote:Rogues can't attack when popping evasion or cloak of shadows?


doesn't make them IMMUNE


Well cloak of shadows is better than the bubble against casters, since it's not being dispelled, and has no penalty at all. It's bascially a blessing of spell warding, and it doesn't lock out any of their other abilities.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:23 am

Fridmarr wrote:
luminae wrote:
Macha wrote:Rogues can't attack when popping evasion or cloak of shadows?


doesn't make them IMMUNE


Well cloak of shadows is better than the bubble against casters, since it's not being dispelled, and has no penalty at all. It's bascially a blessing of spell warding, and it doesn't lock out any of their other abilities.


It also has a much lower cooldown.
I rule.
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Postby Amanor » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:39 am

luminae wrote:
Macha wrote:Rogues can't attack when popping evasion or cloak of shadows?


doesn't make them IMMUNE


Noted. We'll just make Divine Shield a 90% Dodge/Spell Resist.
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:16 pm

Elsie wrote:Exactly what stops a rogue from using evasion, cloak of shadows, blade flurry, and adrenaline rush all at the same time and refresh most of them under 5 minutes?

Okay, "rogues don't get plate." My bad. I thought that's why they get, yknow, vanish, cheap shot, poison, ms, ghost strike, tons of agility on gear...

Besides, it's not like any other class can stack cooldowns. A shaman certainly can't shamanistic rage and bloodlust. I'd really laugh if a mage could have Improved Blink and Arcane Power up at the same time! Besides, druids can't even summon treants within 3 minutes of using Innervate or Owlkin Frenzy procs.


...Stacking defensive with offensive utility is nothing new. Only paladins have forbearance because Divine Shield is too strong. Break it up into Divine Protection, Divine Shield, and Hand of Protection.


Just a note; any Rogue who has Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry wont' have Ghost Strike, Cheat Death, or Shadowstep.
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Postby Morolann » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:53 pm

Raeli wrote:
ScribeShanky wrote:I'd rather not lose Bubble... it's just too awesome.

However, the swing penalty for Divine Shield is very outdated and does nothing to stop burst damage. It would make a lot more sense if all damage caused while under the effect of Divine Shield was reduced by 50%. That would further re-enforce the defensive nature of the spell.



I think that's the best idea I ever heard to deal with DS to be honest. Perhaps 50% is a little much, but that can be tweaked.


Actually I think it's too little, make it 100% reduction in damage whilst under DS and have that able to be removed using our reduction to Swing Time talent (cant remember the name at the moment) in the prot tree.

Bang there goes Ret being unstoppable under the bubble, yes they can heal up but not do any damage.

Prot who are weak in PVP get a slight bonus out of it and everyone should be happy as the talent is too high in prot for Ret to get.

IMO given their goal for all specs to be able to tank in a normal dungeon they should also:
*Make Holy Shield Baseline .

*the 11pt prot talent can then convert Exorcism to a short cooldown interrupt (15secs), does 1/3 damage to non-undead and silences for 2 seconds.

Holy Shield can be replaced with a Spell Damage Shield buff to holy shield:
Shield of the Penitent
When active your Holy Shield ability has the ability to block damage from spells equal to your Block Value * 1.25 (ie 1,000 bv = 1,250 blocked spell dmg).

*Redoubt changed to 10% chance to increase your Block Value by 30% rather than Block Chance.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:04 pm

Morolann wrote:
Raeli wrote:
ScribeShanky wrote:I'd rather not lose Bubble... it's just too awesome.

However, the swing penalty for Divine Shield is very outdated and does nothing to stop burst damage. It would make a lot more sense if all damage caused while under the effect of Divine Shield was reduced by 50%. That would further re-enforce the defensive nature of the spell.



I think that's the best idea I ever heard to deal with DS to be honest. Perhaps 50% is a little much, but that can be tweaked.


Actually I think it's too little, make it 100% reduction in damage whilst under DS and have that able to be removed using our reduction to Swing Time talent (cant remember the name at the moment) in the prot tree.


Yeah sure, as soon as they remove the ability for rogues to attack while cloaked or evading and have it put vanish and sprint on cooldown for 3 min. While we are at it, casters can't attack or heal with BoP on them either.

If they were to make it so you couldn't attack while under the effects of the bubble, then ret pallys would need a shit ton of utility added to make up for it.
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Postby Morolann » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:40 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Yeah sure, as soon as they remove the ability for rogues to attack while cloaked or evading and have it put vanish and sprint on cooldown for 3 min. While we are at it, casters can't attack or heal with BoP on them either.

If they were to make it so you couldn't attack while under the effects of the bubble, then ret pallys would need a shit ton of utility added to make up for it.


But being cloaked or evading doesn't give 100% reduction to all damage.

Divine Protection would still work for a Ret Pally and give them a 50% reduction of all incoming damage, whilst letting them attack.

IIRC all other baseline spells that offer full immunity come with the drawback of not causing damage (and in the case of Ice Block not moving at all).

Hell make it the opposite of Hand of Protection*, you can't cause Holy Damage whilst under Divine Shield but can do physical damage.

*I'm assuming that this still stops you doing all physical damage.


I'm not against Ret Pallies getting some utility as well, but to be honest I actually think that they need to re-do pallies from the ground up again.

We've currently got all the drawbacks of being a mana user but none of the perks (ie ranged attacks), and all the drawbacks of being a melee fighter but none of the perks (ie interrupts, ways to intercept a target).

Unfortunately I don't see this happening :(
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