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A Radically Simple Idea

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Raeli » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:53 am

ScribeShanky wrote:I'd rather not lose Bubble... it's just too awesome.

However, the swing penalty for Divine Shield is very outdated and does nothing to stop burst damage. It would make a lot more sense if all damage caused while under the effect of Divine Shield was reduced by 50%. That would further re-enforce the defensive nature of the spell.



I think that's the best idea I ever heard to deal with DS to be honest. Perhaps 50% is a little much, but that can be tweaked.
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Postby mandm413 » Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:36 am

One, Blizzard is not going to take the bubble out of the game its a class defining skill and is fine as is. If you take away the bubble then paladins become the worst pvp class in the game as we would just be burst down and forgotten no matter what spec we were.

Two, forebearance was introduced into the game because of Pally overpowered healing in bgs when the other side didn't have pallies. A pally healer could DS then BOP themselves and heal uncontested by melee for a long time.

Now that both sides have paladins I think they can just remove forebearance from the game, it served its purpose now both sides can use it so it disadvantages neither. I also like the suggestion that wings just cancels any current bubble.

We finally got a shield wall and I do not want it to share a c/d with the bubble. As a tank I don't use the bubble often but it is situationally useful when you macro to immediately cancel it once its cast.
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Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:21 am

Also, they separated the CD on warriors from retailation, recklessness and shield wall, i don't see why our shield wall must be linked to our recklessness :|
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:41 am

I don't think folks would have been bubble winging all that often if the wings weren't dispellable. To be honest, it's not a good strategy to buff your damage while taking an autoattack penalty, likewise it isn't all that smart to pop the bubble when you aren't in danger of dying, unless you are sure what you are attacking will be dead before the duration ends.

Right now with damage being so high compared to health you can get away with it, but at 80 I don't think that is the case. At this point I don't expect any improvement at all for ret in terms of high rating arena representation.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:53 am

Worldie wrote:Also, they separated the CD on warriors from retailation, recklessness and shield wall, i don't see why our shield wall must be linked to our recklessness :|


They better come up with something. Having wings lockout Divine Protection is simply not acceptable.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:49 pm

I certainly understand the feeling. It feels like they make bubble out to be some super OP power button, when realistically it's not nearly as great as it seems to be. Well, it's excellent against some classes and terrible against others. I think it's at the point now that it's really just too difficult to balance. It needs to be either nerfed considerably and buffed. The way it's almost useless in some situations and godly powerful in others can't make it easy to balance.
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Postby Murbella » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:39 pm

mandm413 wrote:One, Blizzard is not going to take the bubble out of the game its a class defining skill and is fine as is. If you take away the bubble then paladins become the worst pvp class in the game as we would just be burst down and forgotten no matter what spec we were.

And this of course is the problem of being totally balanced around a single 5 minute cooldown (in pvp) that is easily countered in organized pvp. People will complain about it on the boards, but when it comes to arena teams, generally not a problem to force the paladin to bubble exactly when they want them to, if not just (near) instantly remove it.
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Postby luminae » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:18 pm

Murbella wrote:
mandm413 wrote:One, Blizzard is not going to take the bubble out of the game its a class defining skill and is fine as is. If you take away the bubble then paladins become the worst pvp class in the game as we would just be burst down and forgotten no matter what spec we were.

And this of course is the problem of being totally balanced around a single 5 minute cooldown (in pvp) that is easily countered in organized pvp. People will complain about it on the boards, but when it comes to arena teams, generally not a problem to force the paladin to bubble exactly when they want them to, if not just (near) instantly remove it.


wings and bubble is just wrong. i can't even tell people to stop crying over it because the complaint is legitimate. if a mage could attack through iceblock, we'd be screaming. why can we attack through an immunity shield? i like the counter suggestions to eliminating the bubble, such as making us incapable of attacking through it.

it *was* a class defining skill; it has now become justification for beating the daylights out of us. holy shock crits that give you instant FoL have given you more pvp viability, and stack resil to counter the mana drain.
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Postby Invisusira » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:31 pm

One time, I was stunned by a paladin for 30 whole seconds. And then he shielded and I couldn't do damage. I died.
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Postby Sharlos » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:05 pm

Just change DS, DP, and AW to behave like spell damage trinkets, where they all go on cooldown for as long as the spells are active.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:14 pm

Stacking resil doesn't counter a mana drain. Stacking resil just makes mana drains a little less effective. Going into bear form counters a mana drain. Mana draining that priest til he's out of mana counters a mana drain. Getting around a pole counters a mana drain. Everyone has resilience.

Also, is wings and bubble that wrong? I mean, it's a 20% increase in damage and a 100% slow to attack speed. Bubble's even on a five minute cooldown and lasts only 12 seconds. Is it a powerful combo? Sure! Is it more powerful than Cyclone + Cyclone + Cyclone + Feral Charge + Bash + War Stomp + Cyclone Partner + Cyclone Partner + Cyclone Partner? Then repeat? That's OK but 20% increased damage while immune for 12 seconds unless around a Priest isn't?

I hate to keep going back to the Resto Druid analogy, but seriously. Does anyone really think that 20% increased damage while immune to damage for 12 seconds every 5 minutes is something that warranted a hotfix?
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Postby Sarutankah » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:47 pm

The reality is that Ret's still kill people without bubble or wings. Generally it's because the player had no skill or shitty greens or trinket was on CD (or Every man for himself :P LOVE THIS) in which case.. they should never expect to be able to win after we have buttfucked them for 7 seconds 1v1 which is where most of the class balance QQ has come from.

Now that the train has left the station they can "hotfix" paladins whenever they want and we will still all pay to play because apart from the retards that haunt every class, the "Paladin Community" is full of very nice people.

I am in the "reduce or remove damage while bubbled" camp (so that healers can still pop both at once) and buff our damage to exclude the 12 secs every arena match we are Immune and damaging people, even if that takes wings back to a 30% damage modifier.

As it is - I will just remove my 2 points from Sanct Wrath and put them somewhere else.
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Postby Darus » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:35 pm

SOLUTION: All damage done while divine shield/divine protection is active is reduced by 20%
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:43 pm

Darus wrote:SOLUTION: All damage done while divine shield/divine protection is active is reduced by 20%


Yes, it is the attack speed slow that is out of date really. Since the time that was added to the game, ret pallys got Judgements that do damage, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. Autoattack being temporarily slowed isn't a big deal when you have 3 instants. Back in the day when all you did was autoattack and hope for a proc it was. Just have it reduce damage, and have sacred duty undo that reduction and it's fine.
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Postby Sarutankah » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:48 pm

Darus wrote:SOLUTION: All damage done while divine shield/divine protection is active is reduced by 20%


Not enough.


Immunity and still bursting a decent amount of damage = OP.



And to add on to Modus's comment - my mate has a druid and Starfire (or whatever it is) /cyclone/starfire eats me for breakfast, let alone he can stationarily tank me with my weak gear lol.
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