Sinister Reflections

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Sinister Reflections

Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:29 am

I've read through the KJ topic but couldn't find this info, maybe i missed it...

I'm looking for the notable abilities of every kind of reflection, and eventually the "strategy" to deal with them.
We will be running with 2 prot paladins (me tanking both KJ and reflections) and maybe a feral, wtb info kkthx.
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Re: Sinister Reflections

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:47 am

Worldie wrote:I've read through the KJ topic but couldn't find this info, maybe i missed it...

I'm looking for the notable abilities of every kind of reflection, and eventually the "strategy" to deal with them.
We will be running with 2 prot paladins (me tanking both KJ and reflections) and maybe a feral, wtb info kkthx.


• Mages can burst you down.
• Hunters are hard to move.
• Priests need massive single-target DPS or they just heal
• Pallies stun. TPS will be low. Not really an issue.

Rest are easy enough I haven't bothered to work out what their abilities are, they just die.

Get someone else to tank KJ - mage or warlock. You don't want to do it, you won't have the TPS, even with JoL, once you hit the first set of reflections. And there are a couple of reflection types that pump out enough damage to make it sketchy without soaking flays on top.

Spec DG, pop bubble for the 25% collapse if you haven't used it prior. Only bubble off Fire bloom if there's reflections coming up.

After 25 % you want to go get a 2nd dragon (which is another good reason not to be "tanking").
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:25 am

We two-tank KJ as well, but my raid fails at armageddon so the best we've done in two days of attempts is 9%.

I've been on KJ, picking up reflections that move (e.g., rogues, warriors, paladins, shaman); the warrior or bear OT picks up reflections and pulls a few off me, or handles the other types that can not be moved. If we get a bad set that isn't handled well, things go badly.

We get to 55% just fine, at which point things start going downhill. I just picked up DG for the 2nd or 3rd collapse to try to keep firebloom from eating the raid like it almost always seems to do; we can get through the first collapse just fine before people start dying in screaming fire. If you have two prot paladins, having AOE shieldwall for the 2nd and 3rd collapse seems like win.

I actually haven't had any problems with TPS, even when the fight crashes my client and I take 45 seconds to log back in. This is the only fight in the game that makes my client crash.

We've had 2 mages on dragon duty.

I think we're going to try a different strat on Sunday, and have a warlock tank, and tanks do Dragons so mages can just DPS. I know EJ does this fight with a feral soaking, paladin and warrior handling reflections -- their warrior told me the paladin taunts adds off him, and he intervenes around the room to get to orbs.

Our healer comp tends to be very paladin heavy as well, which is kind of fail. I'm probably going to go stack raidhealing for Sunday. Fewer Blessings of Freedom for people who fail at anticipating flame darts, but maybe will be able to keep people alive through bad bloom timing and armageddon bullshit.

I'm not a big fan of this fight.

Knaughty covered the reflection types; I think priests and mages are the worst, as priest heal requires people to intelligently single-target them down, and mages can do around 10k per volley.
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Postby Markoh » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:41 am

For priests another thing to be careful of is make sure you have shaman purging, both adds and kj himself. The renew they cast is pretty strong so you are gonna want to make sure you have it removed asap.

Also we didn't single target them down we just aoe and put the enhance shaman on purge duty, the only real thing you have to watch for is if you aoe them down some might be left alive due to getting a renew that isnt dispelled/purged.

Another thing to watch out for is on paladin reflections if its on p5 can really cause some dmg b/c you can get stunned and hit by a meteor or not make it into the bubble in time if the person chain dispel/cleansing you lapses for a second. Though the chance of this happening now is probably much less b/c of how short the phase is now.

I don't really buy this whole not tanking the mages/warlocks either, if you have your locks and mages move up closer to kj right b4 the reflections spawn its easy to tank them and let your dps aoe them down while still hitting kj. If you have a pally on you there should be no problem keeping you up. Just stuff I've noticed while doing it, though I know there are at least 3-4 different strats that work on this fight so some stuff might be different.

Good luck on the fight, it's definitely one of my favorite fights in tbc.
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Postby Promdates » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:04 am

We ended up having to call out what class it is quite often. I'm one of the Reflection tanks and noticed that the Paladins can and will chain stun you for a good 6 seconds. Mages can rape your face and priest will heal. The others are fairly easy to take care of.

We use a druid and myself or the other prot paladin that shows up sometimes. We actually put one of our paladins on cleanse duty on the two tanks if it's a paladin so that we can keep tanking and not take a shit load of damage from the reflections. We put the Enhancement shaman on the priest adds to purge, and he uses a mouseover purge macro and just spams it if I remember right.

We actually go with 3 tanks for this, 2 ferals and a paladin. One feral tanks KJ and the other one and myself tank the reflections. When we're not tanking, I've noticed him doing some dps on KJ, not much though cause we're mostly moving around to avoid blooms and running in and out of the bubble and stuff.

[e] Btw, when you finally kill him, be prepared to go blind. Everyone does.
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Postby Kezia » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:24 am

We have a shadowpriest spam mass dispel on priest reflections, or else they're a bitch to drop.
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Postby inthedrops » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:37 am

Knaughty covered the adds perfectly (but I'd lump the warlocks in with the mages.)

Personally I don't think you'll have a problem tanking both KJ and the adds. The only thing that I think will kill you is if you have caster reflections and are not being careful about shadow spikes.

KJ + Caster Adds + Shadow Spiked tank = bad news.

I can recall one time (pre-nerf) where Shadow Spike + mages killed me and I wasn't tanking KJ. But given that you will probably have more healers on you I think it'll be fine. Healers just have to be aware that if you got hit with shadow spike that they need to work double hard for 10 seconds.

Sounds like fun! Reflections are so easy now that I think this is doable.
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Postby hopps » Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:01 am

Get someone else to tank KJ - mage or warlock. You don't want to do it, you won't have the TPS, even with JoL, once you hit the first set of reflections. And there are a couple of reflection types that pump out enough damage to make it sketchy without soaking flays on top.


I don't think a warlock can tank him after nerf, I haven't seen a warlock pull 3k dps on a single target since nerf anyways, not saying it isn't possible its just that I think a fire mage w/o any of the threat reduction is best our dragon orb one pulls around 4k dps

and the divine guardian that was recommended is huge...its even worth it for a holy pally to grab so you have a couple, one for collapse and one for explosions, once you get sub 30% with less than a couple people dead its game over, you will have a kill soon. Don't forget to double dragon btw

and when I tank KJ I end up tanking 1-2 reflections for a few seconds until the other pallie tank pulls them off me, she single tanks them. Her gear is like 3 pieces sunwell with the rest bt/hyjal.

I think the reason I end up with reflections is the JOL + it seems like hotr jumps to them because the kj hit box is so big? Anyone else notice this?
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Re: Sinister Reflections

Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:17 am

Knaughty wrote:
Worldie wrote:I've read through the KJ topic but couldn't find this info, maybe i missed it...

I'm looking for the notable abilities of every kind of reflection, and eventually the "strategy" to deal with them.
We will be running with 2 prot paladins (me tanking both KJ and reflections) and maybe a feral, wtb info kkthx.


• Mages can burst you down.
• Hunters are hard to move.
• Priests need massive single-target DPS or they just heal
• Pallies stun. TPS will be low. Not really an issue.

Rest are easy enough I haven't bothered to work out what their abilities are, they just die.

Get someone else to tank KJ - mage or warlock. You don't want to do it, you won't have the TPS, even with JoL, once you hit the first set of reflections. And there are a couple of reflection types that pump out enough damage to make it sketchy without soaking flays on top.

Spec DG, pop bubble for the 25% collapse if you haven't used it prior. Only bubble off Fire bloom if there's reflections coming up.

After 25 % you want to go get a 2nd dragon (which is another good reason not to be "tanking").

We got already enough trusthworthy dragon users (including our GM) so i'm not planning in using dragons. My threat was already FAR ahead of DPS by the time we even got to P3 and our locks threatcaps the raid anyway. So that's a non issue anyway.
I don't plan to spec Divine guardian since
1) it's bugged
2) i don't have the points
3) i'll never spec DG anyway, that talent is against my principles
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Postby Cakes » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:05 pm

To recap:

Mages: Chain cast fireball, which will typically all hit at the same time. Your health will be really spikey, and you'll have a lot of trouble moving them.

Warlocks: Shadowbolts and Curse of Agony spam. The curse doesn't tick for a whole lot, compared to the rest of the damage in the fight, so we just healed through it. Your health will be spikey, and again, you'll have trouble moving them.

Paladins: Fairly strong melee, Holy shock type attack, and chain hammer of justice. Either get someone dedicated to spamming cleanse/dispell on you, or eat a free action potion.

Druids: Moonfire spam on most of the raid. It doesn't tick for a whole lot, but it can hurt and it can stack. I wouldn't bother dispelling it. Light melee attacks.

Hunters: Mostly like to sit at ranged and pluck away. Get in close, get them to melee you, then move them slowly to where you need to aoe them down. Freedom yourself if you happen to get wing clipped.

Rogues: Very quick melee attacks as well as hemorrage damage. Be sure to not let these guys behind you because they can and will drop you quickly.

Warriors: Occasionaly whirlwind in place, make sure you've moved them away from any light armor wearers before that happens. If you have to drag them through part of the raid, make sure everyone knows to get out of your way.

Shaman: Randomly earth shock members of the raid. Not a lot of burst because they tend to target someone other than the highest threat target for shocking. Their target changing does make it hard to properly taunt should they get away due to someone pulling agro.

Priest: Will typically renew themselves at half health or lower, so be sure to have an spriest or shaman dispell/purge it off. Also make sure your enhance shaman is looking for renews on KJ.
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Postby Karador » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:14 pm

Worldi,

Watch Mage, Paladin and Priest reflections.


With the nerfs to sunwell its not a big deal anymore but the mages can rip you a new one fast still. Other than those its pretty much snooze fest.


Best thing I found was to burn the ones at 85% and 55% and leave the ones that spawn at 25% alone till KJ is dead then burn them down. Works out great.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:40 pm

Because of the lower health and increased threat from HotR you no longer have to worry about single-target DPSing any of the adds, just AoE them down where they stand if they don't want to move around.

Mages and Warlocks are the most dangerous for tank damage, and won't move.

Warriors are by far the most dangerous overall and you need to set up your melee groups in such a way that you can keep them out of the raid.

Paladins, pop a FAP when you see these and let a dispeller know if it expires while they're still alive.

The rest, pull to the collapse and AoE in seed range of KJ.

And yeah, don't bother DPSing the 25% reflections. KJ will die before a single darkness if you burn him directly.
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Re: Sinister Reflections

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:03 pm

Worldie wrote:My threat was already FAR ahead of DPS by the time we even got to P3 and our locks threatcaps the raid anyway. So that's a non issue anyway.

Worldie - if you warlock threatcaps the raid, just use whichever DPS has the highest threat. We have one OP firemage who's tanked our 3 kills.

There's no real advantage to you soaking mind-flay, which is the only "tankable" damage from KJ, and there are disadvantages to you doing it - certain reflection types do big, spiky damage. Flay on top is bad. Flay damage can easily be tanked by any DPS - doesn't matter which one. Our mage has died a few times to people standing on him with fire-bloom or something similar. Flays just switch to next highest threat DPS, doesn't matter who. Yell at the healers on vent to tell them who's tanking. Done.
Worldie wrote:I'll never spec DG anyway, that talent is against my principles

Have to agree to disagree on that one.

I'll spec anything that will give me an advantage on killing more bosses.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:07 pm

Speaking from the perspective of someone who got their KJ kill post patch, and is thus less leet than Psiven :)
PsiVen wrote:Because of the lower health and increased threat from HotR you no longer have to worry about single-target DPSing any of the adds, just AoE them down where they stand if they don't want to move around.

We never single-targetted anything but priests. Even there, people are still cleaving/etc.
PsiVen wrote:Warriors are by far the most dangerous overall and you need to set up your melee groups in such a way that you can keep them out of the raid.

Rogues are pretty dangerous to the raid as well. Both rogues and warriors will kill a healer before you can blink if you stuff the pickup.
PsiVen wrote:Paladins, pop a FAP when you see these and let a dispeller know if it expires while they're still alive.

I've never remembered to bring a FAP. Would be OP, but you can live without them.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:09 pm

Tried with warlock tank, he threatcapped heavily our raid.

After 2 attempts i told our GM "Now let me tank it".

The first thing our mages said was "OH, DPS FINALLY", and the duration of p2 and p3 suddently halved.
Due to our odd tank setup (2 prot paladins), we just have my fellow degrolas taking 3 reflection, and i tank the remaining one + KJ.

We decided to position ourself between groups, me between 1 and 2, him between 3 and 4. Whoever is closer will grab all 4 the reflections via shield throw + judgement on 4th, then the other one would either taunt (him from me), or totally ignore them (if he gets them).
The only situation where i go help him is if we get caster reflections: 4 on one single target hurt.

Major good thing about me tanking, is that i absorb all the knockbacks (melees aren't then interrupted in their DPS), plus i got Hand of Freedom to run back to the shield when needed, others don't.

Overally, from switching from lock to me, we gained about 3k DPS as well: i generate 1100-1200 DPS while tanking, Degrolas generates 900, and the lock can go full out instead of spamming searing pain (with lock tanking, we just couldn't even judge light or we'd overaggro). And this doesn't include the DPS gain from threatcapped DPS.

Well, everyone got his own. I'm a fan of "If you want something done properly, do it by yourself" ;)

We brought him constistently to p4 (when the dragon user didn't fail at clicking a button), now just a matter to sort out armageddons and i can complete my Outland Raider achievement.
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