Concerning Tank Damage

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Postby Danth » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:04 am

"I think you are misunderstanding Danth, for most fights good tanks delivered good threat, but now it is just silly high to the point that you really don't even have to try."

You think wrong. I've been doing this job in these games long enough to know the ins and outs of it. Excess threat generation isn't for the good tanks, it's for the bad ones.

If you dislike 'silly high' threat, minimize your threat meter. It just isn't a problem. Truth about aggro is and always has been--any more threat beyond the required amount is waste. You know it too, any good tank does.

Look at the bright side, maybe all those rotten, incompetent tanks out there who make people fear pick-up groups might not fail so horribly now. That'll make the game more fun for everyone else. That's not a bad thing. For those of us who could already do our job, well, we'll continue doing it--no change. The number on the meter will be higher, that's all.

As an added bonus, if ridiculous extreme threat generation means I can push fewer buttons over time to keep the mob pointed at me, then so much the better--game's getting too button-mashy. There's *my* issue that some other folks probably don't care as much about.

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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:07 am

I like to make my numbers as big as possible I think we just have a difference of philosophy, I can never do well enough I always want to push it to the max.

I don't need more buttons but I do want more buttons that do more damage and threat.
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:08 am

Yeah, that's one thing I'd noticed on my deathknight. My damage gear was only a few AP higher than my tanking gear, but the difference in crit/hit was huge. Pretty much, tanking sets cash in hit/haste/crit/ArP for dodge/defense/parry/slightly increased stam, but strength/ap remains roughly static.

Druids don't have a tanking set to allow them to make that exchange, beyond rings/trinkets/cloak/necklace. Pvp gear is the closest thing to that, since it has higher stamina. The lack of druid tanking gear was the big thing that shot them down as tanks in pre-tbc. Now it's been melded into the talents, but I really have to wonder how much "progression" there is for druid gear, given that it's more or less going to just be threat upgrades with a little more armor at each tier due to the higher ivalue.

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OK UMM

Postby Whait » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:17 am

yeah i just read pretty much everyones post and what i gather is folks want their tanks to do more dps. ok fair enough but at what cost? my t5/6 tank does 750 dps in kara and about 730 in ssc/tk 1600 in hyjal and about 730 in BT post patch now if we lower threat (were already the lowest ) and increase dps to match warrs in event increasing Tps just by pue dmg we can safely assume that we would do 1k dps and still have the same shitty threat as before ..so unaware of the scaling for dpsers at lvl 80 wouldnt tanks be the class to go with perioid? i mean good dps insane mitigation.. in an example mage is dps ing 1200 and sees tank dpsing 1000 mage gets killed in some freak accident were he has 9k life and gets hit for 10k O NOES fuk this im rolling a TANK to DPS!!! i dont get it why dont we ask for more threat cuz seriously tanks dont need to dps just liek it was said eailer we take dmg not give it if we come in rolling mad dps then blizz is being hypocritical about hybrids being 10-15% percent behind pure dps caless maybe im talkin out of my ass maybe not but i do know that things make so much more sense when im drunk
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Postby Danth » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:19 am

"I like to make my numbers as big as possible I think we just have a difference of philosophy"

Indeed we do. I don't care about numbers, big or small, although some of the folks I group with do. I have one friend who can't stand playing tank characters in Warcraft specifically *because* of the low damage output. It's a foreign concept to me.

My thought is that if you want to lobby for increased damage output, do so in the most accurate manner possible: "We know it isn't strictly necessary, but we believe it may bring more players to an unpopular role". That seems to have been the reasoning behind the recent improvements in this area.

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Re: OK UMM

Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:21 am

Whait wrote:yeah i just read pretty much everyones post and what i gather is folks want their tanks to do more dps. ok fair enough but at what cost? my t5/6 tank does 750 dps in kara and about 730 in ssc/tk 1600 in hyjal and about 730 in BT post patch now if we lower threat (were already the lowest ) and increase dps to match warrs in event increasing Tps just by pue dmg we can safely assume that we would do 1k dps and still have the same shitty threat as before ..so unaware of the scaling for dpsers at lvl 80 wouldnt tanks be the class to go with perioid? i mean good dps insane mitigation.. in an example mage is dps ing 1200 and sees tank dpsing 1000 mage gets killed in some freak accident were he has 9k life and gets hit for 10k O NOES fuk this im rolling a TANK to DPS!!! i dont get it why dont we ask for more threat cuz seriously tanks dont need to dps just liek it was said eailer we take dmg not give it if we come in rolling mad dps then blizz is being hypocritical about hybrids being 10-15% percent behind pure dps caless maybe im talkin out of my ass maybe not but i do know that things make so much more sense when im drunk

Okay never post here again that hurt just trying to read that.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:24 am

Splug wrote:Yeah, that's one thing I'd noticed on my deathknight. My damage gear was only a few AP higher than my tanking gear, but the difference in crit/hit was huge. Pretty much, tanking sets cash in hit/haste/crit/ArP for dodge/defense/parry/slightly increased stam, but strength/ap remains roughly static.

Druids don't have a tanking set to allow them to make that exchange, beyond rings/trinkets/cloak/necklace. Pvp gear is the closest thing to that, since it has higher stamina. The lack of druid tanking gear was the big thing that shot them down as tanks in pre-tbc. Now it's been melded into the talents, but I really have to wonder how much "progression" there is for druid gear, given that it's more or less going to just be threat upgrades with a little more armor at each tier due to the higher ivalue.

-Splug


Yeah, druids seem to be in a really tough spot gear wise. At least from my outsider's perspective. They seemed to take some action to address it, but with FAP still existing and the PVP <-> PVE crossover still around, the issues still seem to be present.

I'd agree with you that it's not just AP, but more stats like Hit and Expertise that makes a piece more threat oriented. I'd imagine that that haste and hopefully even crit will pop up on gear down the road.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:27 am

Danth wrote:Indeed we do. I don't care about numbers, big or small, although some of the folks I group with do. I have one friend who can't stand playing tank characters in Warcraft specifically *because* of the low damage output. It's a foreign concept to me.

My thought is that if you want to lobby for increased damage output, do so in the most accurate manner possible: "We know it isn't strictly necessary, but we believe it may bring more players to an unpopular role". That seems to have been the reasoning behind the recent improvements in this area.

Danth

You quote oddly.

Anyway, it is necessary, this is a design philosophy change; could they very well continue using plus threat abilities and keep tank DPS low, yes they could but then you run into issues with soloing speed and overall fundamental contribution to group success beyond I am good at getting hit or not getting hit as the case may be.

Do tanks play a very integral and important role, yes they do and I will agree here. All Blizzard did was say lets turn all that static plus threat into something scalable, like damage and allow it to scale hopefully much more smoothly with gear over time. I figure you understand this but I wanted to make sure this point was clear.

We will not be in the top of the damage meters but we should care that we have meaningful damage output and really the idea that tanks have to do terrible DPS is just a stale and old design philosophy of balance. Damage should be meaningful and that damage should correlate to increased threat on the part of the tank.

So in essence a good tank will be doing meaningful DPS because he wants to keep his threat as high as possible for a given raid encounter. Maybe you can have too much threat but you can never have too much damage.
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Re: OK UMM

Postby majiben » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:29 am

Whait wrote:Yeah I just read pretty much everyone's post and what I gather is folks want their tanks to do more dps. Ok, fair enough but at what cost?

My t5/6 tank does 750 dps in kara and about 730 in ssc/tk 1600 in hyjal and about 730 in BT post patch now if we lower threat (were already the lowest) and increase dps to match warrs in event (effect?) increasing Tps just by pure dmg we can safely assume that we would do 1k dps and still have the same shitty threat as before ..so unaware of the scaling for dpsers at lvl 80 wouldn't tanks be the class to go with perioid (I have no no idea what yo make of that sentence)?

I mean good dps insane mitigation.. in an example mage is dpsing 1200 and sees tank dpsing 1000 mage gets killed in some freak accident were he has 9k life and gets hit for 10k "O NOES" fuck this I'm rolling a TANK to DPS!!! I dont get it why dont we ask for more threat because seriously tanks don't need to dps just like it was said eailer we take dmg not give it if we come in rolling mad dps then blizz is being hypocritical about hybrids being 10-15% percent behind pure dps caless maybe I'm talkin out of my ass (emphasis added by me) maybe not but I do know that things make so much more sense when I'm drunk (emphasis added by me)
Those annotations and corrections should make things clear.

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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:34 am

Well, the haste / ArP / crit stats seem to be what gets swapped for defensive stuff - though yeah, they could change that philosophy to get more "threat gear." It's already starting to be a bit of a grey area. Faerlina drops bracers with stamina, strength, hit, and expertise. Is that damage gear or threat gear? There aren't any defensive stats, but there's no "inefficient" threat stats like crit/haste/ArP either.

I suppose the dividing line can be drawn based on the presence or absence of mitigative stats rather than the presence or absence of offensive stats. That's the way I handled those bracers; I classed them as damage gear. But even for plate tanks, the line's a lot less vague than it once was. For druids, there isn't even a second side to the line. I really feel like this is a throwback for feral druids to the pre-MC era, where tanking itemization only allowed for scaling into stamina and agility. It feels very primitive and one-dimensional, and I can see why they're upset even if the end result in pve gear is balanced.

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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:37 am

If they gave ferals more form customization they would forget all about their PvE woes.

;)
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Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:38 am

Splug wrote:Well, the haste / ArP / crit stats seem to be what gets swapped for defensive stuff - though yeah, they could change that philosophy to get more "threat gear." It's already starting to be a bit of a grey area. Faerlina drops bracers with stamina, strength, hit, and expertise. Is that damage gear or threat gear? There aren't any defensive stats, but there's no "inefficient" threat stats like crit/haste/ArP either.

I suppose the dividing line can be drawn based on the presence or absence of mitigative stats rather than the presence or absence of offensive stats. That's the way I handled those bracers; I classed them as damage gear. But even for plate tanks, the line's a lot less vague than it once was. For druids, there isn't even a second side to the line. I really feel like this is a throwback for feral druids to the pre-MC era, where tanking itemization only allowed for scaling into stamina and agility. It feels very primitive and one-dimensional, and I can see why they're upset even if the end result in pve gear is balanced.

I'm more concerned for druids in that they a might end up seriously hurt by only scaling agility.

They don't need shield block rating, parry, or defense (for miss). So they only scale through dodge. Wouldn't this mean they are more adversely affected by DR than plate tanks that can use Parry / Defense?
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:40 am

Blizzard said they have a different scaling/DR table to account for not having parry.

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Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:47 am

Splug wrote:Blizzard said they have a different scaling/DR table to account for not having parry.


Well, this helps explain why ferals are so freaking insane in pvp now. Yay for 15%+ increase movement, -6% crit through talents, Frenzied regeneration fast than people can DPS, and -20% attack speed in their pvp spec.

edit: whoa, I'm catching you on post count.
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:51 am

Elsie wrote:edit: whoa, I'm catching you on post count.
Yes, but my avatar is a green slug with a thunderfury, which an old guildmate drew for me. Seriously, post count or no, you can't beat that.

I also tend to only latch onto a handful of threads, and only in the wotlk forums (or occasionally general). I make very few posts elsewhere on the board.

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