Concerning Tank Damage

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Postby Danth » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:23 am

"If you already have your best DPS, and you wipe for enrage timer, i'd consider the tank with more DPS and less avoidance."

And I'd consider that your damage dealers are failing the gear check. Well, the above poster beat me to it.

Tank damage output doesn't matter much. In the same scenario listed above, take the more durable tank and tell one of the healers to do some damage too. Same end result. If you have equally durable tanks and you somehow need the higher damage one to defeat an encounter, that's a failure of content tuning, not class balancing.

That said, tank damage output is such a non-factor that I see no particular reason that one tank should do substantially less damage than the others. I don't lobby for improvements in this area merely because I don't consider it worth the bother--there are bigger fish to fry. When asked about damage dealing, I neither want it nor oppose it so much as say, "Who cares?"

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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:25 am

They didn’t increase our DPS for nothing and if anything healers may be even busier healing the raid as they have increased AoE healing capabilities, along with the DPS in some cases. I am not saying you can’t have Healers DPS, you probably will on many fights but other times you are going to want them to heal, and keep people alive which means you want those people actually doing damage doing as much damage as they can.

This includes the tanks.

They are going to create fights around certain baselines of gear and capabilities; tank damage is going to be one of those baselines. They have reached a point where they can say at this gear level a raid should have “blank” DPS, which theoretical target number will include a minimum that they expect a tank or tanks to bring to the table based on gear available.

It may never happen that an enrage timer will be missed because your tank DPS is too low but if two tanks are in the same gear and one does 200-300 DPS more then the other in the same fight, then I am pretty sure I can see that being used as part of a decision to choose which tank to use in that situation. Plus I consider overall tank DPS output an important factor for “rating” tank skill along with their TPS, game knowledge, and general situational awareness.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:26 am

Lore wrote:Given that they will be designing and testing the new content (and presumably pushing to PTR as well) before it's released, I'm not too concerned that they're going to just make some stuff and throw it out there because it made sense on paper 6 months ago.

If our DPS is low, they will increase our DPS. GC already said that much when Ret was nerfed.


I agree with this in theory. It is definitely their intent, but time is of the essence and they have a lot of things that need adjusted.

Lore wrote:As to whether or not tank DPS matters: of course it does. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter in the slightest where it's coming from. Say you're going to Brutallus, pre-nerf, and you're choosing between two rogues. One does 2200 DPS. The other does more like 1600. Which do you pick? Why?


Sure, but you are trying to get blood out of a turnip if you are squeezing your tank's gear to get DPS. It's not like he's not doing any DPS at all with the effective health gear.

Like I said earlier, his DPS may help you beat an enrage timer, but the odds of that are absolutely not any greater than the odds of the extra health keeping him alive at any point in the fight where he would have died without it. There are lots of ways to squeeze for DPS from encounter to encounter, sacrificing tanking survivability should be one of the last places you turn too.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:26 am

Danth wrote:I don't lobby for improvements in this area merely because I don't consider it worth the bother--there are bigger fish to fry. When asked about damage dealing, I neither want it nor oppose it so much as say, "Who cares?"

Danth

I care because increased damage is increased threat.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:28 am

Fridmarr wrote:
thomase wrote:
Worldie wrote:FYI, ShoR can miss but cannot be dodge-parryed


It can be deflected however. Isn't deflection the ranged equivalent of parry?


You sure on that, I don't remember ShoR being deflected, HotR gets deflected all the time.

ShoR is a magic attack (cannot use it while silenced, HotR can), the "miss" you see is a resist in fact. Cannot be dodged or parried due to the magic nature.

HotR is a melee attack which deals magic damage, hence dodgable and deflectable.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:28 am

Fridmarr wrote:Like I said earlier, his DPS may help you beat an enrage timer, but the odds of that are absolutely not any greater than the odds of the extra health keeping him alive at any point in the fight where he would have died without it. There are lots of ways to squeeze for DPS from encounter to encounter, sacrificing tanking survivability should be one of the last places you turn too.

Knowing when to sacrifice one for the other is a vital tank skill, I did that even in before 3.0 where I had spell damage sets for extreme threat and survivability sets for those fights that mattered.

This is no different.
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Postby Danth » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:32 am

"I care because increased damage is increased threat."

Not necessarily. Abilities can add threat without dealing damage. They're related, but not necessarily linked. I was under the impression that Blizzard increased tank damage output primarily because of all the tank players complaining that they didn't deal good damage.

As noted, I don't oppose dealing more damage, I just don't care. I will oppose the notion that it's "necessary", but that's merely nit-picking on a public forum. All that's necessary is being able to keep mobs on us and take the damage as well as the alternatives. Anything else is fluff. I don't mind fluff, but I don't ask for it either. If we get it, fine, doesn't hurt any.

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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:36 am

Danth wrote:"I care because increased damage is increased threat."

Not necessarily. Abilities can add threat without dealing damage. They're related, but not necessarily linked. I was under the impression that Blizzard increased tank damage output primarily because of all the tank players complaining that they didn't deal good damage.

As noted, I don't oppose dealing more damage, I just don't care. I will oppose the notion that it's "necessary", but that's merely nit-picking on a public forum.

Danth

There are very few increased threat abilities left, and I can't think of one for paladin tanks, everything is damage focused.

Shield of Righteousness tooltip not withstanding.

So yes increased damage is increased threat.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:42 am

Vanifae wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Like I said earlier, his DPS may help you beat an enrage timer, but the odds of that are absolutely not any greater than the odds of the extra health keeping him alive at any point in the fight where he would have died without it. There are lots of ways to squeeze for DPS from encounter to encounter, sacrificing tanking survivability should be one of the last places you turn too.

Knowing when to sacrifice one for the other is a vital tank skill, I did that even in before 3.0 where I had spell damage sets for extreme threat and survivability sets for those fights that mattered.

This is no different.


It is significantly different. There's a reason we called it a threat set and not a DPS set. You didn't put on a threat set for your own DPS, you put on a threat for threat. Doing more threat at that time allowed for a lot more DPS, but it came from folks who were threat capped, not from you. In fact you could argue there is far less of a reason to put on DPS gear now than ever before because the potential gains are much less.

Threat capping is entirely different from what GC was talking about in this case. Now I suspect at some point it will be an issue again, at least I hope that it is, I think removing it from encounters is dumb, however it wasn't threat capping that GC was talking about with the gear level mentioned.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:45 am

Fridmarr wrote:It is significantly different. There's a reason we called it a threat set and not a DPS set. You didn't put on a threat set for your own DPS, you put on a threat for threat. Doing more threat at that time allowed for a lot more DPS, but it came from folks who were threat capped, not from you. In fact you could argue there is far less of a reason to put on DPS gear now than ever before because the potential gains are much less.

Threat capping is entirely different from what GC was talking about in this case. Now I suspect at some point it will be an issue again, at least I hope that it is, I think removing it from encounters is dumb, however it wasn't threat capping that GC was talking about with the gear level mentioned.

Basically yes it does increase my threat ceiling but tank damage was deliberately kept lower then it is now, and even so in my threat set my personal DPS did increase; basically running around in shockadin gear with tank stats.

I do agree though I want to see threat actually be a factor again, it made for more intense encounters at times.

Edit: I don't think we will have to switch as much tank gear out to increase pure damage since our gear already has gobs of strength on it along with Hit and Expertise.
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Postby Danth » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:49 am

"I think removing it from encounters is dumb"

I don't.

Tanks mitigate and survive damage. To do that, they have to be hit, which means they have to hold aggro. If your damage dealers have to hold back to keep things on you, then you're not doing your job at all, someone else is "helping" you do it. Damage dealers do their thing independently of others. Healers do their their thing independently of others. Why should tanks be the only archtype that needs 'help' doing its job? That right there is a major cause of the generally weak, gimpy feeling Warcraft tanks suffer from.

Furthermore, players *expect* their tank to hold aggro. Players will in many cases opt to pick a tank with worse tanking stats if it can generate more threat. People don't want to be threat-limited, they want to be able to do their thing without having to hold back and help that weakling tank.

No, tanks generating insufficient threat is and always has been a horrible mechanic. Throw that crap away. Blizzard solved that problem primarily by a flat damage increase. A flat threat increase would have worked too, one's as good as the other.

If some people say the same thing about low-damage (as opposed to threat) tank design, well, I understand your opinion. I might not care--but I don't oppose it either.

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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:53 am

I think you are misunderstanding Danth, for most fights good tanks delivered good threat, but now it is just silly high to the point that you really don't even have to try.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:54 am

Vanifae wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:It is significantly different. There's a reason we called it a threat set and not a DPS set. You didn't put on a threat set for your own DPS, you put on a threat for threat. Doing more threat at that time allowed for a lot more DPS, but it came from folks who were threat capped, not from you. In fact you could argue there is far less of a reason to put on DPS gear now than ever before because the potential gains are much less.

Threat capping is entirely different from what GC was talking about in this case. Now I suspect at some point it will be an issue again, at least I hope that it is, I think removing it from encounters is dumb, however it wasn't threat capping that GC was talking about with the gear level mentioned.

Basically yes it does increase my threat increasing the threat ceiling but tank damage was deliberately kept lower then it is now, and even so in my threat set my personal DPS did increase; basically running around in shockadin gear with tank stats.

I do agree though I want to see threat actually be a factor again, it made for more intense encounters at times.

Edit: I don't think we will have to switch as much tank gear out to increase pure threat since our gear already has gobs of strength on it along with Hit and Expertise.


Yeah I understand how it worked, and I'm sure I'll have a DPS set and I'll use it against those bosses where mitigation concerns don't really matter.

I just don't think that delta between our DPS in threat gear versus our DPS in mitigation gear will be all that significant 99% of the time. If folks are threat capped, then there are some tough decisions to make as that is a different story, but until that time I'm not buying what GC is selling. If I was a bear, I'd probably have both pieces of gear, and be wearing the mitigation (PVP) piece for any progression attempts.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:56 am

Like I said earlier I think GC made a very weak argument, to feral tanks, about the tank DPS requirement, it may come into play but that must be for an encounter no one has seen yet.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:00 am

Vanifae wrote:Like I said earlier I think GC made a very weak argument, to feral tanks, about the tank DPS requirement, it may come into play but that must be for an encounter no one has seen yet.


You actually brought up a really good point above about gear. Almost all tanking gear is also threat gear now, since pretty much all of it has threat stats (Strength in our case). Obviously there will be some variance between pieces with the amount of threat stats, but pretty much everything has some threat stat on it.

Druids have a situation though where PVP gear has better survivability than some of their PVE pieces. For us, the reliance on Defense/Dodge/Parry/Block stats makes it a non issue. Druids are really looking for Armor, Stamina, and Agi for the bulk of their survivability, all of which exists on their PVP gear. It's a fairly unique situation.
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