I'm just a bit worried

[Tekkel]

It's true warriors have some more hp in raids and can do some aoe tanking but we're still better at it tbh. Mages and locks in my guild still pull mobs of the warrior aoeing and not from me.
Seeing the warrior tank stack dual hp trinkets and alot of hit/expertise gear makes him have less avoidance though.
I'm nearing 8-9% more evasion then our warrior and druid tank atm with higher armor values as well.

Personally I don't have problems getting into raids and MTing stuff because we run a fair system between the whole 3 tanks we have in the guild about tanking certain stuff.

Tbh you need to sort it out between tanks and not with your GM/RL.

[Cema]

And about Sanct... i had it on my warrior recently, i was like, 100/100 rage constantly, i had no idea of how to use it, i was spamming HS and every skill on CD and still wouldnt go below 100 rage.

In theory HoJ stun is already working, one of our arcane mages QQd that if a paladin stunned him while channeling arcane missiles, he could not blink.

Confirm this two. I tried casting a greater heal and then was stuned, unable tu bubble or anything. problem is that it doesnt work on bosses :/

[mirkodeluxe]

And about Sanct... i had it on my warrior recently, i was like, 100/100 rage constantly, i had no idea of how to use it, i was spamming HS and every skill on CD and still wouldnt go below 100 rage.

In theory HoJ stun is already working, one of our arcane mages QQd that if a paladin stunned him while channeling arcane missiles, he could not blink.

Confirm this two. I tried casting a greater heal and then was stuned, unable tu bubble or anything. problem is that it doesnt work on bosses :/

Last time I tried it didnt work on elites that were immune to the HoJ stun, so its not only bosses..

[Snake-Aes]

Thread's TL;DR : Your rl is a dick, and people are getting emo.

[tbolt]

If you're feeling down just go dive into a big pile of undead scourge from the new invasion stuff. After you finish AoE tanking all of the mobs at a summoning circle with full health/mana and get whispers from people whose jaws are hitting the floor or are cursing at you, you will feel better. It may not solve the remaining issues we have, but it helps.

[sanctifico]

Easy solution, speak with the raid/guild leader, explain the benefits you can bring to the raid.

What benefits does bringing two warrior tanks have? - none unless you dont have a dps warrior for BS.
Not gonna mention druids because they can just go cat and dps without any problems.

+ Blessing of Sanctucary = buffable 3% less damage raidwide, aleviate rage starvation for the tanks while they are tanking.
+ JotJ = 100% uptime on Tclap, and frees up the warriors/druids to use GCD & rage on more important things like more damage.
+ Imp devotion = 6% more healing, and more armour for tanks.
+ Divine Guardian = 30% less damage taken by everyone for 12seconds (this is awesome for Encapsulate)
+ An extra judgement on the bosses (more mana for ranged or healing for melee) [judgement stacks with other paladins]
+ A reasonable dpser on single tank bosses (1100-1200 dps on most bosses.)

--- Oh noes I have 1000 less hp and take 1-2% more damage +++ I take less damage spikes thanks to holy sheild granting me 100% block uptime, making it easier for healers to predict the deficit to use a relevant heal.


There is no reason not to bring a tankadin to sunwell, most of the bosses are undead tbh! we do imbah tps =D

If your GL can't see that switch guilds/transfer.

[Snake-Aes]

Easy solution, speak with the raid/guild leader, explain the benefits you can bring to the raid.

What benefits does bringing two warrior tanks have? - none unless you dont have a dps warrior for BS.
Not gonna mention druids because they can just go cat and dps without any problems.

+ Blessing of Sanctucary = buffable 3% less damage raidwide, aleviate rage starvation for the tanks while they are tanking.
+ JotJ = 100% uptime on Tclap, and frees up the warriors/druids to use GCD & rage on more important things like more damage.
+ Imp devotion = 6% more healing, and more armour for tanks.
+ Divine Guardian = 30% less damage taken by everyone for 12seconds (this is awesome for Encapsulate)
+ An extra judgement on the bosses (more mana for ranged or healing for melee) [judgement stacks with other paladins]
+ A reasonable dpser on single tank bosses (1100-1200 dps on most bosses.)

--- Oh noes I have 1000 less hp and take 1-2% more damage +++ I take less damage spikes thanks to holy sheild granting me 100% block uptime, making it easier for healers to predict the deficit to use a relevant heal.


There is no reason not to bring a tankadin to sunwell, most of the bosses are undead tbh! we do imbah tps =D

If your GL can't see that switch guilds/transfer.

This changed. Druids can no longer do both dps and tanking in the feral tree like they did in BC. The feral tree is essentially a tree and a half, where many key tanking talents and key dps talents are separate. The end result is that you actually can be a great cat feral and an offspec-but-usable bear feral, or you can be a great bear feral and an offspec-but-usable cat feral.

Akin to how warriors and paladins and dks that go the tanky way play for dps.

[baghead]

QUESTION:
Can anyone confirm if vigilance stacks with BoSanct? I'm guessing no, but can anyone confirm 100%? I could test it, but I'd be keen to see a blue reference.

Because the corollary here is:

If tanks really aren't rage starved as is, and dual vigilance between the MT and OT works, then what actual benefit is BoSanct in most situations?
(ie. we're pinning a lot of public opinion on BoSanct being the 'must have' to help justify a prot pally slot)

Any thoughts?

[Katamai]

Nothing has changed ...
The MT position is still assigned to the Warrior. They are amazing now having aoe control ...
They have more HP and from a RL pow is enough to not change his mind about who's is MT.

Mmm definitively not, paladins are perfectly competitive vs warriors.

Pre 3.0 you had to "justify"
1) Less stamina
2) Need for a warrior to put TC
3) Need for a war or rogue to put armor debuff
4) Less threat
5) Less HP
6) Less avoidance
7) 4% less mitigation
8 ) No interrupt
9) No spellreflect
10) Lag-dependant crushabilty

Obviously we could be better, but it's nowhere close as it was in TBC. TBC paladin was NOT intended as Main Tank. WotLK paladin IS.

Hate to nitpick but...

Pre 3.0 vs post 3.0 we have:

1) More stam due to better scaling from gear/now we have less
2) Need for warrior babysitter to put TC up/we got it
3) Need for others for armor debuff/ we still got none
4) Less threat/ still the case though less visible
5) Less HP/ we still have less
6) Less avoidance (we had less avoidance pre 3.0?)/ it's still the case with gear
7) 4% less mitigation/ technically we are still behind till SotT goes live
No interrupt/ lol1min/30s talented
9) no Spell reflect/ still have none
10) lag dependent crushability where we still had an egde/ no crushings anymore :<

Now we have more predictable dmg (oh the irony), comparable mitigation (when SotT goes live), same avoidance (not if you look at Naxx gear, though diminishing returns should help with that), Sanctuary (yaay!), less DPS/TPS (DPS part is pissing me off), less HP and worse scaling, no SR. In all, it's not really a fair trade. I'm not QQIng as we should be better than what we were but it's still annoying as hell to have artificial limitations (why less base HP? why less avoidance on gear? why such ridiculous RF scaling? why so much less DPS?)

We will be better off than now but i'm affraid we'll have to wait till 3.3.

But still, i love smacking baddies with my lolswipeHAMMAH! Bring on the Bitch King for some slapping!

PS OP your RL is an idiot <_<
PPS Divine Guardian is a crappy talent. Encapsulates are a lol now and she dies with 1 air phase now.

[Bobness]

Your GL is a Jerk..

Only real reason another Tank should be chosen... other than skill/attendance/gimmick encounter.

Is TPS....

Most don't think this will be a problem, ceratinly it isn't now.

I honestly believe that it will be in the near future but that's another story.

[Gruffs]

As i see it its not a problem IF we can manage to tank every boss, from what ive heard we will beable to tank it all.

The issue is that if we indeed can tank everything as good as a warrior
We still have to justify (as some one wrote):
1) Less DPS/TPS (which doesn't matter currently since our threat is beyond the roof
2) Less HP
3) No spellreflect

and from what i can see on this thread:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... &start=285
We are a tad behind on mitigation

As i see it the reason why paladins got a tanking spot before was that no one could AoE tank like us.. we can still AOE tank better then wars, but that reason is now gone. Im currently AOE tanking with my prot war allmost as easy as i do with my paladin.

Ofc it allso comes down to how good you are as a player.. but if you are running against 1 prot war that is allso skilled raid leaders tend to take the easy way out.. the war.. he has more HP

Id say switch guild to one that wants a skilled pally

[Snake-Aes]

Pre 3.0 vs post 3.0 we have:

1) More stam due to better scaling from gear/now we have less
2) Need for warrior babysitter to put TC up/we got it
3) Need for others for armor debuff/ we still got none
4) Less threat/ still the case though less visible
5) Less HP/ we still have less
6) Less avoidance (we had less avoidance pre 3.0?)/ it's still the case with gear
7) 4% less mitigation/ technically we are still behind till SotT goes live
No interrupt/ lol1min/30s talented
9) no Spell reflect/ still have none
10) lag dependent crushability where we still had an egde/ no crushings anymore :<

You cannot in a sane state of mind ask for an armor debuff when we almost don't care about armor.

Also non-blocked hits are the new crushing blows. 1200 damage is no joke.

[mirkodeluxe]

Yeah I think the general consensus is that your RL is basically an idiot for neglecting to take you at all for nerfed content.
I also agree with this.
But I also want to recommend anyone who's encountered such blatant prejudice to look for a guild where you can have a good relationship with your officers and your RL because, quite simply, friends dont leave friends out in the cold like this.
Switch guild - it'll make the game more enjoyable for you.

[Worldie]

Regarding avoidance, noone forces you to wear a tier piece with less avoidance, there are alternatives.

[mirkodeluxe]

Regarding avoidance, noone forces you to wear a tier piece with less avoidance, there are alternatives.

Indeed.
And I would also like to point out that there are a number of points where we dont match warriors. But the real questions shouldnt be whether we are inferior because if it or if we have something else to compensate, the real question is: what does it matter?

There are also a number of points where warriors dont match us, will that stop warriors from being picked? Or other tanks for that matter.