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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:53 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't think the RF multiplier needs to decrease.

If we want increased personal dps to the same level as other tanks, then it needs to be lower to match the increased output.

Personally I'm not overly concerned, but I know many are.


given that we are dead last in damage and threat right now, I believe we can just leave the jury out on that until we see how the numbers stack up.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:05 pm

One of the overarching themes of the recent tanking talent changes is that most of the "flat mitigation" talents have had some form of damage increase added to them. Judgements of the Just having some form of damage increase somewhere actually would make sense. This is a damage reduction that can also come from other sources, giving it some functionality whenever a warrior / frost deathknight / feral druid actually is available.

On the other hand, over-valuing individual talents is something Blizzard tries to avoid. They have to play a balancing game with it becoming a completely mandatory use of points. That said, this does seem like a logical location for a localized damage augment.

EDIT: The other qualifier, of course, is whether or not prot actually does need more damage; it sounds like that may become true once the nerf to non-command seals goes live, but we'll see. Also, this doesn't do much to fix holy paladins having the problem, though perhaps having the increased judgement range talent also increase its damage would help.

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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:31 pm

Splug wrote:One of the overarching themes of the recent tanking talent changes is that most of the "flat mitigation" talents have had some form of damage increase added to them. Judgements of the Just having some form of damage increase somewhere actually would make sense. This is a damage reduction that can also come from other sources, giving it some functionality whenever a warrior / frost deathknight / feral druid actually is available.

On the other hand, over-valuing individual talents is something Blizzard tries to avoid. They have to play a balancing game with it becoming a completely mandatory use of points. That said, this does seem like a logical location for a localized damage augment.

EDIT: The other qualifier, of course, is whether or not prot actually does need more damage; it sounds like that may become true once the nerf to non-command seals goes live, but we'll see. Also, this doesn't do much to fix holy paladins having the problem, though perhaps having the increased judgement range talent also increase its damage would help.

-Splug


Yeah, when I had mentioned Judgement of the Just, it was just a good fit, and a similar effect on the holy judgement thingy works too. My idea was simply beefing up judgement damage on JoV/JoR to make up for the retarded nerf, and for some snap aggro aid.

I don't think when you are that deep in the tree, the relative power of a specific talent matters all that much. Ultimately, the performance of a spec has to achieve a certain baseline (above the baseline if you will) and if you have that spread lopsidedly among talents then so be it. Early in a tree it's dangerous because of cross spec implications, especially with hybrids.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:38 pm

I disagree - the bottom portion of the tree remaining fairly even is equally critical. If there are a handful of must-have talent and the rest are complete throwaways, you end up with an obvious route to 51 in that tree and then are almost forced to find off-tree options for the remaining 20 points. If the bottom of the tree is spread out a bit more evenly, it means you have to weigh going over 51 in the tree against off-spec alternatives. It also makes it a bit easier to pull out in the 40-45 range, rather than saying the 46-50 talents are so critical there's no way to play it in any form of hybrid capacity. One of the beta builds included a version of Tundra Stalker where it increased expertise by 10, damage from icy touch, howling blast, and obliterate by 25%, and damage to targets afflicted with frost fever by 10%. It's just too much for 5 points, even though it put frost and blood/unholy at an even footing - there was no way to do something like 26/45/0, which is otherwise a decent build.

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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:44 pm

Splug wrote:I disagree - the bottom portion of the tree remaining fairly even is equally critical. If there are a handful of must-have talent and the rest are complete throwaways, you end up with an obvious route to 51 in that tree and then are almost forced to find off-tree options for the remaining 20 points. If the bottom of the tree is spread out a bit more evenly, it means you have to weigh going over 51 in the tree against off-spec alternatives. It also makes it a bit easier to pull out in the 40-45 range, rather than saying the 46-50 talents are so critical there's no way to play it in any form of hybrid capacity. One of the beta builds included a version of Tundra Stalker where it increased expertise by 10, damage from icy touch, howling blast, and obliterate by 25%, and damage to targets afflicted with frost fever by 10%. It's just too much for 5 points, even though it put frost and blood/unholy at an even footing - there was no way to do something like 26/45/0, which is otherwise a decent build.

-Splug


You are making an assumption that you shouldn't. I'm not suggesting any talent anywhere be a throwaway. A good example of an incredibly lopsided talent was Vengeance in TBC which didn't cause those problems.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:57 pm

The premise was that there are talents which are significantly better than alternatives in the same tree. Hrm, I suppose there's the case where the extremely deep talents are all significantly better than the early talents, and thus you have as a minimum talents that are non-throwaway, and then the heavyweight "must haves." But then you run into railroading everyone into "pure" specs taking all the cornerstone talents, with little room for hybridization. Only real way I could see to make that a non-issue as well is to put the unbalanced ones at the 20-40 range, where a 51+ offspec can't get it but not so deep that a full-tree build is absolutely essential to be effective. And even then, you'd need no more than 5 cornerstone talents per tree or you run into demanding an extra set of point at that tier, and thus in that tree. EDIT: I guess that's exactly what vengeance was: no more than 5 points in the 20-40 range, though in TBC that would have been the 20-30 range. Either way it fits the bill.

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