GC's announcement as to our nerfs

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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:57 am

Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:So, I don't think they'll scale quite as well as some of the other classes.


Gear scaling makes it so that good in okay gear at X level in X level gear means you'll be good in okay gear at Y level in Y level gear.


Everybody has gear scaling though.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:21 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Splug wrote:Got an actual wws log, rather than my "I think recount looked like this" statement: http://wowwebstats.com/mixkmkpgbmtf1?s=110455-141296

It's a little skewed due to being in heavy latency. The good news is they changed... something last night, and we now get one 1-2 second lag spike every 10 minutes instead of having a 3-4 second opening without lag every 10 minutes. Took a while, but Illidan is fixed!

-Splug


He's probably a little lower than I'd like to see considering Ret pallys don't get any new skills, and in reality not any new ranks for their primary dps skills either. So, I don't think they'll scale quite as well as some of the other classes. We really won't have a great idea of all that until 80.

Then again, most of the SWP bosses are kind of difficult to do this type of analysis on.
Well, to put a few things into perspective, Blizzard has implied their target damage range for lv 80 "entering Naxx" is about 2.5k dps. The big offenders here are:
* Deep wounds is rediculous, a nerf is already announced. Looking at a breakdown by skill shows Nomepunter's damage is completely out of whack. If Brut hadn't taken so long to kill in the lag, he's estimating he'd be over 4k dps, largely due to better bloodlust uptime.
* Moonkin are in the same boat as ret - their single target rotation will not change much and they already have about all the talents they'll get.
* Manico's a relatively new tryout. He came in with some very respectable gear, but there's no few upgrades he could still use from Sunwell.
* QQ the prot paladin beat me by 66 dps. =(

-Splug
Last edited by Splug on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Flex » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:22 am

Fridmarr wrote:Everybody has gear scaling though.



Right. They have other issues like spell coefficients and, formerly, down ranking issues.

To me, ranks aren't an ideal solution, but they are a solution.

I'd personally love to get rid of ranks and move to some sort of level based scaling for melee and level * cast time scaling for caster dps.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:28 am

Splug wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Splug wrote:Got an actual wws log, rather than my "I think recount looked like this" statement: http://wowwebstats.com/mixkmkpgbmtf1?s=110455-141296

It's a little skewed due to being in heavy latency. The good news is they changed... something last night, and we now get one 1-2 second lag spike every 10 minutes instead of having a 3-4 second opening without lag every 10 minutes. Took a while, but Illidan is fixed!

-Splug


He's probably a little lower than I'd like to see considering Ret pallys don't get any new skills, and in reality not any new ranks for their primary dps skills either. So, I don't think they'll scale quite as well as some of the other classes. We really won't have a great idea of all that until 80.

Then again, most of the SWP bosses are kind of difficult to do this type of analysis on.
Well, to put a few things into perspective, Blizzard has implied their target damage range for lv 80 "entering Naxx" is about 2.5k dps. The big offenders here are:
* Deep wounds is rediculous, a nerf is already announced. Looking at a breakdown by skill shows Nomepunter's damage is completely out of whack. If Brut hadn't taken so long to kill in the lag, he's estimating he'd be over 4k dps, largely due to better bloodlust uptime.
* Moonkin are in the same boat as ret - their single target rotation will not change much and they already have about all the talents they'll get.
* Manico's a relatively new tryout. He came in with some very respectable gear, but there's no few upgrades he could still use from Sunwell.
* QQ the prot paladin beat me by 66 dps. =(

-Splug


Splug
Is Moothera (druid) tanking on those fights. Am noting exactly what I was seeing on other parses, that Bear dps seems considerably higher than warrior/pally dps.
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Postby Splug » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:31 am

Yeah, but he's in catform half the time while I was tanking too. And I was honestly too lazy to flip to berserker stance let alone dual wield in the latency; seemed better to keep thunderclap close at hand (though in retrospect, there were two people with attack speed reductions on autopilot so I shouldn't have worried about that).

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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:22 pm

Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Everybody has gear scaling though.



Right. They have other issues like spell coefficients and, formerly, down ranking issues.

To me, ranks aren't an ideal solution, but they are a solution.

I'd personally love to get rid of ranks and move to some sort of level based scaling for melee and level * cast time scaling for caster dps.


I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Are you saying that pally gear scaling is equal to say a lock's gear scaling and new spell ranks and new spells? I don't think that's accurate, particularly having played both a good bit. Where there is some scaling made up is at the level cap, new weapons for melee have a much more dramatic scaling effect than any single gear slot for casters.

Whatever the relative position of pallys are now, if nothing were to change, it would certainly be lower at Naxx level 80. Their position is such that I do have some concerns, in part because of scaling, but there are still changes being made and even not yet implemented yet, so it could be for not.
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Postby Flex » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:14 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Whatever the relative position of pallys are now, if nothing were to change, it would certainly be lower at Naxx level 80.


If nothing were to change it'd be the same as it was at 70 for classes more dependant upon gear than ranks.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:20 pm

Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Whatever the relative position of pallys are now, if nothing were to change, it would certainly be lower at Naxx level 80.


If nothing were to change it'd be the same as it was at 70 for classes more dependant upon gear than ranks.


My lock, my pally, and math disagree with you. It's not merely new ranks, it's also new abilities. I don't think ret pallys are going to run around Shield Slamming or tossing up Sacred Shield for DPS.
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Postby fafhrd » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:19 pm

Splug wrote:Got an actual wws log, rather than my "I think recount looked like this" statement: http://wowwebstats.com/mixkmkpgbmtf1?s=110455-141296

It's a little skewed due to being in heavy latency. The good news is they changed... something last night, and we now get one 1-2 second lag spike every 10 minutes instead of having a 3-4 second opening without lag every 10 minutes. Took a while, but Illidan is fixed!

-Splug


How on earth are your hunters so low :O

Also, testing: vavhrd
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Postby Tev » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:04 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Everybody has gear scaling though.



Right. They have other issues like spell coefficients and, formerly, down ranking issues.

To me, ranks aren't an ideal solution, but they are a solution.

I'd personally love to get rid of ranks and move to some sort of level based scaling for melee and level * cast time scaling for caster dps.


I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Are you saying that pally gear scaling is equal to say a lock's gear scaling and new spell ranks and new spells? I don't think that's accurate, particularly having played both a good bit. Where there is some scaling made up is at the level cap, new weapons for melee have a much more dramatic scaling effect than any single gear slot for casters.

Whatever the relative position of pallys are now, if nothing were to change, it would certainly be lower at Naxx level 80. Their position is such that I do have some concerns, in part because of scaling, but there are still changes being made and even not yet implemented yet, so it could be for not.


A Bit OT, but on point with your statement, I always thought that caster weapons should have a base DPS stat, that influenced the base damage of their spells. Where you could count a rogues weapons as the base of their DPS (with so many of their abilities being weapon damage *X +Y), Change spells to function in a similar way. Would help change some of the disparity between melee and casters and would probably alleviate some of the balancing issues.

Enough of my ramblings, carry on.
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:05 am

fafhrd wrote:
Splug wrote:Got an actual wws log, rather than my "I think recount looked like this" statement: http://wowwebstats.com/mixkmkpgbmtf1?s=110455-141296

It's a little skewed due to being in heavy latency. The good news is they changed... something last night, and we now get one 1-2 second lag spike every 10 minutes instead of having a 3-4 second opening without lag every 10 minutes. Took a while, but Illidan is fixed!

-Splug


How on earth are your hunters so low :O

Also, testing: vavhrd
I have no idea. I do know that trying to manage a slam rotation in heavy latency resulted in reducing my warrior's arms damage before 2.4 by clipping autoattack, and that I was doing KJ with just MS/WW/HS. It's possible steady shot had a similar impact on their rotation, but I don't know hunters well enough to comment on that. Does the rotation fall apart or somehing if you add 2-3 seconds to every cast?

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Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:38 am

Splug wrote:
fafhrd wrote:
Splug wrote:Got an actual wws log, rather than my "I think recount looked like this" statement: http://wowwebstats.com/mixkmkpgbmtf1?s=110455-141296

It's a little skewed due to being in heavy latency. The good news is they changed... something last night, and we now get one 1-2 second lag spike every 10 minutes instead of having a 3-4 second opening without lag every 10 minutes. Took a while, but Illidan is fixed!

-Splug


How on earth are your hunters so low :O

Also, testing: vavhrd
I have no idea. I do know that trying to manage a slam rotation in heavy latency resulted in reducing my warrior's arms damage before 2.4 by clipping autoattack, and that I was doing KJ with just MS/WW/HS. It's possible steady shot had a similar impact on their rotation, but I don't know hunters well enough to comment on that. Does the rotation fall apart or somehing if you add 2-3 seconds to every cast?

-Splug


No, but all dps other than autoattacks drops.

Looking at it again, your hunters' pets weren't attacking at all during brutallus. That happens sometimes because of terrain problems. Tank him somewhere else, and everyone's dps will go up because of faster kills (both your hunters were BM in that parse, so you're looking at 1500+ dps lost for each pet :S).

They seem kinda low on other fights too, maybe relatively undergeared :S?
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:17 am

Hrm... they're really not undergeared. And you're right, it's odd; we previously had 2-3 hunters in the top 5 before 3.0, and they all fell behind quite a bit. We chalked it up to "moonkins and deep wounds are overpowered," but if the pets are getting stuck on terrain artifacts that could be an issue. They may just be having trouble adjusting to class changes, or the Illidan latency.

EDIT: Oh, that's right- Grashock and Adelpha swapped for each other after Felmyst - so each was only in half the raid. Vaelfar is #2 overall (which includes trash, so possibly some slackage by other people).

EDIT2: We also tried something different on M'uru due to the lower add health that involved them being on M'uru the whole time rather than shooting the door adds for 10 seconds and wasting time, but there were some issues with pets and darkness. So that could have skewed it a bit.

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Postby Vika » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:11 pm

Didn't see this posted anywhere; GC "confirms" single-target taunt glyph

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12197379738&sid=2000&pageNo=2#26

In any case, I believe I said at Blizzcon that we were going to add a glyph to let Righteous Defense only work on one target (and add some secondary bonus since the single-target thing is technically a penalty).


As I understood it, up until now, the possibility that we'd see this glyph was much more speculative than this post would indicate.
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Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:11 pm

I agree with the poster beneath GC. It wouldn´t fix most of the issues of RD, the part of it, when it simply doesn´t work. I don´t think they would rework the whole thing into a regular taunt.

Just hand over the simple one target taunt. It´s such a ridiculous issue to keep it away from paladin tanks, because of possible homogenization. Is Righteous Defense the head developers own contribution he lovingly crafted years ago or is there some religious dogma barring us from taunting a single mob?

Hm let´s take a look into the fictional paladin scripture

Ah here it is.

So spake the Light:
Thou shalt not taunt more than three but not one and not two unless there aren´t three on the man under your care.

To taunt less is a sin under the light. Evil are the thoughts of the holy warrior who desires to taunt only one, as he is on the path of forsaking the light.

Sorry guys. No taunt for us :lol:
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