So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Lore » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:05 pm

Girard wrote:Changes I propose:
1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.
2) Change Redoubt to a 2/4/6/8/10% flat block increase.
3) Change Shield Spec to 15/30/45% block value increase
4) Maybe add to Precision a 1/2/3% spell hit it (see #7 below)
5) Remove Stoicism and Improved Concentration Aura, the former belongs in Ret, the latter belongs in Holy.
6) Spellwarding should be 3/6%
7) Sacred Duty's bonus to stamina is fine (maybe up it to 4/8%) but the decrease on the cooldown to Bubble is well.. situationally useful at best. Change it to reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath would be much better, or even giving us +spellhit here would be nice, since none of our gear has any.
8 ) Either fix weapon skill or nix Weapon Expertise.
9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%
10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.


1) I like this idea, if they're going to keep putting int on our set gear they might as well make it useful for something
2) It'd be nice if Redoubt had some sort of base block chance on it, but I like the proc for AOE tanking.
3) ;)
4) ;)
5) Eh, I don't mind Stoicism being in Prot. It's a defensive talent, certainly doesn't fit into a PVE build but for PVP'ers (particularly primarily ret and holy specs) it can add a nice bit of extra survivability. I'd also rather see imp conc aura get a buff, so it'd be worth picking up for tanking mobs with silence. Adding some mana drain resistance to either talent would be pretty nice as well.
6) ;)
7) Yeah, it's strange, but it does kinda "belong" in the Prot tree in the same way Stoicism does. I see Holy/Prot/Ret as Healing/Survivability/DPS, not so much as specific PVE or PVP trees. It is a fair bit deep in the tree to be useful for PVP though. It might be a cool idea to move the stamina bonus to Stoicism and have the talents swap places.
8 ) Agreed.
9) Not sure what the idea here is. It's 5 points for 5% parry, you can easily just only spend 3 points in it to get 3% parry.
10) ;)

Things I'd personally really like to see happen with us:

#1: High block value/low avoidance tanking. If it were possible for us to stack enough block value to make up for rare dodges and parries, we'd see a huge threat increase vs single target mobs, and have a much smoother DTPS which would effectively nullify our HP deficiency.

#2: More class-defining stuff useful for tanking. I mentioned this in another thread - why am I considered the hardest class to kill, but only when I'm not tanking? Divine Shield is basically the first thing that comes to mind when you think of a Paladin, why do I so rarely use it when taking damage? Another option would be to incorporate some sort of self-healing while tanking; I'd LOVE to finally see spell damage scaling on JoL.
Last edited by Lore on Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kayallah » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:07 pm

Personally I'd like to see Consecrate give some kind of a buff to us, or a debuff to the mobs its affecting. Nothing huge, but something to make the large mana cost more worthwhile. Some kind of a 3 or so point talent.

Just my .02
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Postby Velhym » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:07 pm

LORE ISN'T WINKING, HE HAS SOMETHING IN HIS EYE. ITS REALLY A WINCE.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:13 pm

Lore has unequivocally stated that Shield Spec is being buffed to 45% on Tuesday. To the WoW forum!
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Postby Lore » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:15 pm

Arcand wrote:Lore has unequivocally stated that Shield Spec is being buffed to 45% on Tuesday. To the WoW forum!


Yeah no.

I heard some stuff. All I really know is that it's an option that was considered at some point that may or may not ever come to light.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:24 pm

Lore wrote:I heard some stuff. All I really know is that it's an option that was considered at some point that may or may not ever come to light.


Sounds like they agreed early on to give us uber block values, and played around with several ways to make it happen. I hope I live long enough to see which one they finally decided on.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Myotis » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:25 pm

Vanifae wrote:1. That would make INT worthwhile, I think allowing us a way to convert some Black Value into Threat would be awesome as well.

I have always wanted to convert my Black Value into something.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Girard » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:50 pm

Girard wrote:9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%


I posted this with the mentality of Pallies should be blocking tanks, not parry/dodge based. Ergo increases to overall blocking and a decrease to the other stats >.>


And yes, I meant Vindication. Maybe change it from str/agil to a flat AP decrease? I just would like to see it more useful than it is now. Sort of our chance on hit version of Demoralizing Shout/Roar.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Tiandelin » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:20 pm

Girard wrote:Changes I propose:
1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.
2) Change Redoubt to a 2/4/6/8/10% flat block increase.
3) Change Shield Spec to 15/30/45% block value increase
4) Maybe add to Precision a 1/2/3% spell hit it (see #7 below)
5) Remove Stoicism and Improved Concentration Aura, the former belongs in Ret, the latter belongs in Holy.
6) Spellwarding should be 3/6%
7) Sacred Duty's bonus to stamina is fine (maybe up it to 4/8%) but the decrease on the cooldown to Bubble is well.. situationally useful at best. Change it to reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath would be much better, or even giving us +spellhit here would be nice, since none of our gear has any.
8 ) Either fix weapon skill or nix Weapon Expertise.
9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%
10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.


1) I don't think it would really make that much of a difference. Extra block value is always nice, but there are some bigger issues I'd like to see addressed instead.

2) I used to advocate the same change, but now I think it might actually be overpowered considering how easy it is to get block rating already. I don't have any gear from SSC or beyond in my block set, and I already have 42% block chance (no holy shield) when I'm wearing it. It almost starts to cut into crushing blows with HS down. +10% passive block chance from redoubt would be insane.

3) It would be nice, especially considering how block-dependent we are. It probably has less potential to be broken than suggestion #2.

4) Considering that there is no spell hit plate in the game, this would be a very reasonable and welcome change.

5) No opinion. I never gave these talents a second glance. That probably says something about how useful they are to pally tanks, though.

6) Agreed, and add to that a 10% damage reduction from improved righteous fury.

7) I'd like to see either a greater health boost from this talent or a mitigation improvement from improved RF and spell warding. The divine shield cooldown reduction is situational at best, but I can't see an AW cooldown reduction being much less situational. There aren't that many times when I really need to use it again within 3 minutes.

8) Or reduce the number of points you have to put into the skill to get the effect. Considering how heavily you have to invest in prot anyway, 5 more points in the eighth tier is a bit much.

9) I don't see how this helps us. If you'd rather spend the points on something else, nothing's stopping you. If you're afraid of faster attacks on bosses triggering more counter-parry bursts from them, then I advise never going outside. There's always a chance you could be hit by a bus or a meteorite or something. :)

10) Assuming you mean vindication, it would be nice. Not having any kind of equivalent to TC or demo shout/roar kinda sucks.

In general, it would be nice not to have to invest 49 points into prot to pick up all the "essentials". It's a very crowded tree as it is, and it could use some condensing.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Belldandi » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:08 am

Girard wrote:Things that won't make us over powered, but by the same token fixes some broken talents.


Changes I propose:
1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.
2) Change Redoubt to a 2/4/6/8/10% flat block increase.
3) Change Shield Spec to 15/30/45% block value increase
4) Maybe add to Precision a 1/2/3% spell hit it (see #7 below)
5) Remove Stoicism and Improved Concentration Aura, the former belongs in Ret, the latter belongs in Holy.
6) Spellwarding should be 3/6%
7) Sacred Duty's bonus to stamina is fine (maybe up it to 4/8%) but the decrease on the cooldown to Bubble is well.. situationally useful at best. Change it to reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath would be much better, or even giving us +spellhit here would be nice, since none of our gear has any.
8 ) Either fix weapon skill or nix Weapon Expertise.
9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%
10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.

Any other suggestions?


1. I think Int would be a better stat to set us apart from warrior itemization.
2. 10% Passive is kinda of over powering... I think how it procs should change to how the Vengence card procs, that should make it useful again.
3. Fine as it is.
4. Fine as it is.
5. I have no comment on this, doesn't effect me either or.
6. Eh, no comment as far as changes. See what I added on the bottom.
7. I think a good way to bridge HP gap is through Sacred Duty 5/10% I think is better. Bubble cooldown is fine as it is. Avenging Wrath is fine, I think it gives as much as a Disc. Priest Power Infusion anyways, can't check at work right now.
8. Wasn't ever a fan of WE
9. Huh? Why?
10. Isn't that an Alliance thing? SoV is better than Horde's SoB IMHO anyways, except for mobs that are immune to magic.

Things I like to add.
11. Blessing of Sanc, changes I would like to make to this is instead of the useless DM that happens after armor <.< Please please please change it to BV instead.
12. Holy Shield, ok no changes, just a addition. Give HS a synergy bonus when using BoSanc either more spell res or chance of "blocking" a single targeting spell expending 2 charges or something.

Other than that I'm a pretty happy Paladin
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Blutreich » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:38 am

Vanifae wrote:
Madmordigan wrote:
Girard wrote:9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%


Why reduce parry to 3% from 3 points?

He is afraid of insane crazy Parry spike damage.


the person parrying gets the melee haste, so the tank having more parry gives the tank more hits not the mob.
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Postby Vanifae » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:41 am

I was being facetious, although yes you are correct.

But yes I find reducing that to 3% a silly change.
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Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:45 am

As I stated before, the intent was to move away from other forms of avoidance into a more blocking-based tank style. Hence the reduced parry.
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Postby Pizbit » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:04 am

Girard wrote:As I stated before, the intent was to move away from other forms of avoidance into a more blocking-based tank style. Hence the reduced parry.


Why? Do you want to take more damage...?
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Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:11 am

Pizbit wrote:
Girard wrote:As I stated before, the intent was to move away from other forms of avoidance into a more blocking-based tank style. Hence the reduced parry.


Why? Do you want to take more damage...?

Not exactly. Merely trying to bring us more inline with where the vast majority of our threat seems to come from; reactive threat (especially blocking). If we get our new blessing, this will be further enhanced.
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