whoa whoa buff blood/matyr??? wtf

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby majiben » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:42 pm

Yeah but the dps class would have likely been threat capped even more with a DK or druid because paladins bring another HoS and warriors bring Vigilance.

was replying to this post which was deleted >.<
Well if a warrior, druid, or DK had been tanking, they would have provided more dmg than a pally tank. We are the de-facto lowest dmg tank at 80.

(*remember a 300dps difference is 90k dmg over 5mins....that would be over .5% on most wotlk raid bosses)
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Postby Spectrum » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:49 pm

Their goal at 80 was to not have people have to worry about threat caps if they are in similar levels of gear. Once we add ShoR into our rotations the DPS shouldn't have to worry, will they?

If Blizzard has their way we won't be thinking about a "threat seal" or carry around a "threat set". It'll just be for DPS.
Spectrum
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:40 pm
Location: Silvermoon, Alliance

Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:51 pm

Finished double checking:

Seal of Blood on live does 10% of the holy damage returned only.
Either the toolbar is inaccurate or the ability is bugged. Personally I lean to the toolbar being badly worded.

Included in the screen is:
A Blood judgement for 735, returning 238dmg
Four Seal of Blood damage returns 3 normal (15, 17, 15) one crit (34)

The general white dmg I was doing (383 norm, 794 crit)
Tankadin and my char screen open )

http://lh5.ggpht.com/Tolken.Pally/SQf3z ... 003849.jpg

Here's a higher quality vers if you want it:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Tolken.Pall ... 8865808962

I hereby restate that under 50dmg returned is piss damage to be worried about with a 25,000hp pool at 80. If someone can convince me we'll be dealing white dmg of over 3500 per swing (and thereby seal return dmg of over 100) then I might rethink that opinion.
Image
User avatar
DeadMilliken
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:19 am

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:40 pm

They should add to Judgements of the Just and make it increase judgement damage of JoV/JoR by a ton, so we don't even want to use SoB.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Seraphia » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:07 am

But I like SoBlood :(



Either the toolbar is inaccurate or the ability is bugged. Personally I lean to the toolbar being badly worded.



I'm not sure where the confusion even began? Did it count white damage before? Total damage is referring to the total damage of the seal the way it's worded.

The Seal is modified by white damage, not the other way around.
-Seraphia <Slap in the Face> : Doomhammer
User avatar
Seraphia
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:37 am

Postby DeadMilliken » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:38 am

Fridmarr wrote:They should add to Judgements of the Just and make it increase judgement damage of JoV/JoR by a ton, so we don't even want to use SoB.


Or maybe instead remove the piddling dmg some of you can't get over. SoB has one final bonus, it follows HotR itemization.
(*weapon damage matters)

I'd personally like our threat sources to be more consistant instead of having oddball sources (*HotR is the only threat source typically used that all of a sudden cares about a melee dps weapon.)


I'm not sure where the confusion even began? Did it count white damage before?


AFAIK no. I didn't use SoB much, but I never remember it doing substanial damage...I always remembered it doing piddling dmg.
Image
User avatar
DeadMilliken
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:19 am

Postby Amarant_Pally » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:01 am

DeadMilliken wrote:
I'm not sure where the confusion even began? Did it count white damage before?


AFAIK no. I didn't use SoB much, but I never remember it doing substanial damage...I always remembered it doing piddling dmg.


It's definitely always been 10% of the Holy damage portion.
Amarant_Pally
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 2:53 pm

Postby Candiru » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:35 am

Its the judgement which does damage back to you, the seal hardly dos anything.

Seal used USED to do loads of damage back to you, when holy% damage modifiers worked twice on it. (sanc aura, wings, vengeance etc) That was fixed a long time ago though.
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Postby Daeren » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:46 am

Kellann wrote:
Eanin wrote:Here's the problem as I see it:

They made prot tps scale off of AP. Whoops! Ret has more AP. Therefore, they start using our seals.



I think the problem is even simpler than that - they still haven't figured out a way to get paladins off of SpellPower (they only found a way to hide it in talents instead of gear).

They've just done it all in the wrong order thus far (hopefully they've caught on to it by now).

1st - remove Ret SpellPower (change the talent to a healing synergy with some sort of candy that gets them to take it).
2nd - 'twist the knobs' on AP coefficients until you're happy with ret's output. While you're at it, this is a good place to see if the DPS/DPM breakdown for their rotation is lame, and fix it.
3rd - Check holy's DPS while soloing - compare to other healing classes that would use SP. Adjust the SP coefficients to seals until they're at a happy place.
4th - Check Prots *DPS* and threat while tanking - compare it to other tanking classes. Twist the RF knob and the SP synergy until prot has similar (happy 5%) output compared to the other tanking classes.

Personally I don't much care if my DPS while tanking comes from AP or SP or straight from talents/abilities. If we manage to do the same, with the same gear, does it really matter how the talents make it happen.

This
User avatar
Daeren
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:22 pm

Postby Amanor » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:50 am

Macha wrote:
I disagree with this logic, because it implies that miniscule damage lumped over time is the primary cause of death and as such the reason for not using SoB.


No, it implies that applying miniscule damage to yourself all the time when you don't have to reduces your EH, which in turn makes it easier for you to die against the one thing we are already weak against.


How does "It implies that applying miniscule damage to yourself all the time when you don't have to reduces your EH" through Seal of Blood any different than any other damage mitigating talents like Imp Devo that people aren't taking as they view the benefit as merely optional? Or Imp LoH? Or ensuring they get Sanc and Kings together no matter what the means they require?

Or, pre 3.0, how was it any different from skipping Spell Warding?

If we're going to split hairs over the miniscule damage Blood returns over the course of a fight, why aren't we also applying that same logic indiscriminately and stacking as much Expertise as we can, taking Imp Devo, ensuring we have Sanc and Kings in every raid, and Imp LoH for that armor increase? What about all the damage we're "inflicting upon ourselves" by not taking every single little EH increase?

I'm personally also surprised that the damage taken was even being argued. The 10% total damage taken refers to the damage induced by the seal. When has a seal (not a judgement) ever affected anything more than weapon swings?
Image
User avatar
Amanor
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:23 pm

Postby Khayne » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:28 am

Daeren wrote:
Kellann wrote:
Eanin wrote:Here's the problem as I see it:

They made prot tps scale off of AP. Whoops! Ret has more AP. Therefore, they start using our seals.



I think the problem is even simpler than that - they still haven't figured out a way to get paladins off of SpellPower (they only found a way to hide it in talents instead of gear).

They've just done it all in the wrong order thus far (hopefully they've caught on to it by now).

1st - remove Ret SpellPower (change the talent to a healing synergy with some sort of candy that gets them to take it).
2nd - 'twist the knobs' on AP coefficients until you're happy with ret's output. While you're at it, this is a good place to see if the DPS/DPM breakdown for their rotation is lame, and fix it.
3rd - Check holy's DPS while soloing - compare to other healing classes that would use SP. Adjust the SP coefficients to seals until they're at a happy place.
4th - Check Prots *DPS* and threat while tanking - compare it to other tanking classes. Twist the RF knob and the SP synergy until prot has similar (happy 5%) output compared to the other tanking classes.

Personally I don't much care if my DPS while tanking comes from AP or SP or straight from talents/abilities. If we manage to do the same, with the same gear, does it really matter how the talents make it happen.

This
This.

Also i wouldn´t be comfortable with SoB tanking, might be since i´ve been ret a few times now and the damage returns can be substancial.

and even if the seal+judgement hits for only 250ish, even with 25k health that´s 1% of EH off by self-damage...prob. wont kill you, but still the whole idea that our threat would be based on "well we can use SoB if we need more" seems kinda wrong. Maybe if some deep prot talent made us not get hit by the return damage, it´d be cool. As someone pointed out, it´d also work in wonderfully with HotR.
Image
Khayne
 
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:48 pm
Location: Finland

Postby Seraphia » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:39 pm

I like SoBlood because it makes use of Weapon DPS, Crit and Haste. Things which traditionally have been of negligible use for Prot Paladins.

Adding some kind of SoBlood protection into Judgment of the Just would be delicious gravy :D
-Seraphia <Slap in the Face> : Doomhammer
User avatar
Seraphia
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:37 am

Postby Levantine » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:08 pm

Hi! I like Seal of Blood because it makes use of stats that I won't have on my gear.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Postby Tyaera » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:28 pm

Levantine wrote:Hi! I like Seal of Blood because it makes use of stats that I won't have on my gear.


What, Strength? Yes it will.
better to tank in hell than DPS in heaven
Image
User avatar
Tyaera
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:48 pm
Location: sneaking through minefields

Postby Levantine » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:38 pm

I was referring to the Haste and Crit that were mentioned.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

PreviousNext

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest