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whoa whoa buff blood/matyr??? wtf

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Postby Spectrum » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:14 pm

Here's the thing about using Seal of Blood for tanking. You probably wouldn't use it on those EH-critical progression fights.

What does that mean? The damage back doesn't matter because you can choose to use it on the fights where it doesn't. Trash where you're more worried about DPS pulling aggro? SoB. Long boss fights based on AE damage? SoB. Fights based on adds? SoB the boss if you're not on adds. Heavy-hitting bosses where tank death is the #1 cause of wipes: don't use SoB.

Most of the times we wipe it isn't because the tank was taking too much damage. It's because people were in the wrong positions, adds weren't controlled, or a healer got DCed. On those fights the SoB damage will probably be compensated for by a little less overhealing.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:18 pm

DeadMilliken wrote:
Over a five minute fight, with a (rather conservative) 100 damage per swing with a 2.0 speed weapon, Seal of Blood would do 15,000 damage to the Paladin alone.


False

I don't even know where to begin on how you got that.

Lets say worst case you meant to say 400 white, ~100 SoB, 10dmg returned every 2sec.
5mins is 300sec. or 150 dmg procs

150 * 10 = 1,500 dmg.


It's 10% of Total Damage, not just the holy damage.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=31892

"All melee attacks deal [0.22 * mw] to [0.22 * MW] additional Holy damage, but the Paladin loses health equal to 10% of the total damage inflicted. Lasts 2 min."

http://thottbot.com/wotlk/s31892

"All melee attacks deal (0.22*mw) to (0.22*MW) additional Holy damage, but the Paladin loses health equal to 10% of the total damage inflicted. Lasts 2 min."

Total damage, not just Holy Damage inflicted.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:20 pm

Splug wrote:Having auras and stances co-exist may actually be beyond the scope of the code. Auras, aspects, and stances all go to the same place, and that's indicative of them being coded similarly. However, the idea of having auras that do function as stances and just making the resistance buffs external is interesting. It would invoke other limitations, and the re-work of death knight auras to be unlinked from presences suggests Blizzard didn't like the implications there, but it is an intriguing concept.

-Splug


I'd make the Resistances work like Aspects for Hunters.

They've got (a?) aura and their Aspects which work similarly.
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Postby Splug » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:22 pm

Trueshot Aura works differently - it doesn't have to compete with anything else. It's just a normal talented buff, so you don't have to "change stances" to turn it on.

EDIT: It might be possible to move auras over to the warrior "shout" system to cover the exclusivity issue, and then run stances on the current aura bar? It's probably less code work for Blizzard to just make the 11-point prot talent change your class to "warrior" at that point.

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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:23 pm

Obrimos wrote:Total damage, not just Holy Damage inflicted.


I'll double check myself and my addons, but that's not how my combat UI listed the return dmg ingame live yesterday.

It was 10% of the additional dmg...I was taking 15-17dmg per swing rebound (~160 SoB proc around 570 white dmg) and ~300 on judgement.
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:25 pm

DeadMilliken wrote:
Obrimos wrote:Total damage, not just Holy Damage inflicted.


I'll double check myself and my addons, but that's not how my combat UI listed the return dmg ingame live yesterday.

It was 10% of the additional dmg...I was taking 15-17dmg per swing rebound (~160 SoB proc) and ~300 on judgement.


It's listed just about everywhere I can find as Total Damage, I don't use it myself since I'm tanking 99% of the time and when I ret in PVP I use Command.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:30 pm

Obrimos wrote:
It's listed just about everywhere I can find as Total Damage, I don't use it myself since I'm tanking 99% of the time and when I ret in PVP I use Command.


It wouldn't be the first time Blizzard made a bad tooltip....
(*Nor would I be in the least bit surprised Blizzard introduced a bug while screwing around with the seals so much)

And it wouldn't be the first time I screwed up my UI....

Nor would it be the first time I'm a blind fool ;)

I'll post screenies and accept victory or defeat when I get home.

Edit:
You know what...I was testing off the dummies....there's a very real possibility it wasn't returning the correct damage because of that. I'll double check on dummies and wildlife.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:03 pm

Danth wrote:"Talk about boring combat, in 3 gcds you are done and just waiting for cds to come back up"

What's wrong with that? If you're still doing what you're supposed to, where's the problem? Do you really think there mere act of mashing buttons is fun in and of itself? I don't.


I'd like to say that I /really/ enjoyed the relzed pace of hunter DPS pre-2.0, when we only used aimed, multi, multi, and arcane shots.
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Postby Seraphia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:26 pm

DeadMilliken wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
It's listed just about everywhere I can find as Total Damage, I don't use it myself since I'm tanking 99% of the time and when I ret in PVP I use Command.


It wouldn't be the first time Blizzard made a bad tooltip....
(*Nor would I be in the least bit surprised Blizzard introduced a bug while screwing around with the seals so much)

And it wouldn't be the first time I screwed up my UI....

Nor would it be the first time I'm a blind fool ;)

I'll post screenies and accept victory or defeat when I get home.

Edit:
You know what...I was testing off the dummies....there's a very real possibility it wasn't returning the correct damage because of that. I'll double check on dummies and wildlife.



I just smacked some skeleton in the plague lands on live 30 seconds ago.

Sera's Melee swing hits skeleton for 431 physical
Sera's Seal of the Martyr hits skeleton for 152 holy
Sera's Seal of the Martyr hits Sera for 13 holy

Unless my math is horribly wrong, Total Damage is referring to the damage done by the seal.
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Postby Macha » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:31 pm

I disagree with this logic, because it implies that miniscule damage lumped over time is the primary cause of death and as such the reason for not using SoB.


No, it implies that applying miniscule damage to yourself all the time when you don't have to reduces your EH, which in turn makes it easier for you to die against the one thing we are already weak against.
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Postby Seraphia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:43 pm

Macha wrote:
I disagree with this logic, because it implies that miniscule damage lumped over time is the primary cause of death and as such the reason for not using SoB.


No, it implies that applying miniscule damage to yourself all the time when you don't have to reduces your EH, which in turn makes it easier for you to die against the one thing we are already weak against.



Will you apply the same logic when the raid wipes because they missed an enrage timer by 0.5% due to the loss of extra DPS by not using Blood?

/shrug
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Postby Kysen » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:52 pm

Seraphia wrote:
Will you apply the same logic when the raid wipes because they missed an enrage timer by 0.5% due to the loss of extra DPS by not using Blood?

/shrug


I wouldn't blame the tank for 0.5% (who blames tanks for dps loss?) I would blame a dpser that was slacking. There is no excuse for a tank to take unnecessary damage, SoB is for farm content.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:58 pm

Kysen wrote:
Seraphia wrote:
Will you apply the same logic when the raid wipes because they missed an enrage timer by 0.5% due to the loss of extra DPS by not using Blood?

/shrug


I wouldn't blame the tank for 0.5% (who blames tanks for dps loss?) I would blame a dpser that was slacking. There is no excuse for a tank to take unnecessary damage, SoB is for farm content.


Please note this is purely devil's advocate here, but what if one or two people were threat capped?
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:00 pm

I wonder what GC's take would be on Blood being our best threat seal? I wonder if that would be OK because it's a choice and we have other options, of if GC would find that Blood being our best threat seal is not a mechanic they want.
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Postby Seraphia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:27 pm

Well tanks do WAY more damage now, but Fridmarr got what I Was getting at. There are already some specs that can start riding our asses threat wise (I'm looking at you Laser Turkeys! :lol: )



I wouldn't be surprised if GC was okay with Blood being our best threat seal, since it's also the seal with the most 'drawbacks'.
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