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Postby Widdox » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:22 am

Right, but if there was a spammable ability to put in its place then they would never use it.
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Postby Origon » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:22 am

Can someone grab a WWS of the "proper" rotation blizz is suggesting? Judgement / CS / DS and resealing, just so we see how bad the dps is and how fast we go OOM instead of it simply being them saying it is so?
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Postby Zironic » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:39 pm

Origon wrote:Can someone grab a WWS of the "proper" rotation blizz is suggesting? Judgement / CS / DS and resealing, just so we see how bad the dps is and how fast we go OOM instead of it simply being them saying it is so?


Why don't you just beat up a target dummy?
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Postby Arcand » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:14 pm

Zironic wrote:
Origon wrote:Can someone grab a WWS of the "proper" rotation blizz is suggesting? Judgement / CS / DS and resealing, just so we see how bad the dps is and how fast we go OOM instead of it simply being them saying it is so?


Why don't you just beat up a target dummy?


If we do the simulation without raid buffs, Mana Spring and Replenishment, they'll probably dismiss it...the strongest point we can make is showing that even with all the new mana-support mechanisms working for us, we still run out of gas.

* Edit: By 'we' I meant Ret DPSadins. I said 'we' as a minor show of solidarity but it wasn't a very logical thing to say because Arcand has never been anything but prot.
Last edited by Arcand on Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:15 pm

Arcand wrote:
Zironic wrote:
Origon wrote:Can someone grab a WWS of the "proper" rotation blizz is suggesting? Judgement / CS / DS and resealing, just so we see how bad the dps is and how fast we go OOM instead of it simply being them saying it is so?


Why don't you just beat up a target dummy?


If we do the simulation without raid buffs, Mana Spring and Replenishment, they'll probably dismiss it...the strongest point we can make is showing that even with all the new mana-support mechanisms working for us, we still run out of gas.


From reading the various tests on the beta forums, the problem seems to be that we run out of steam while solo or in small groups, whereas in raids we can sustain the rotation but fall greatly behind in DPS and can't do any of the cool stuff we used to be able to do.
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Postby Tev » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:39 pm

The main issue I have at all with blizz is the ambiguity of their tests. GC stated (and I cannot find it atm, I'll look some more) that they spent "hours" testing the JotW nerf. Hours seems like a pale comparison to the days and weeks the player testers have spent experiencing the issue first hand. And I have to admit, I'm going to take the figures shown to me by experienced raiders over the non supported figures the Devs claim.

Its hard to take them at their word when people can show otherwise.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:12 am

The abilities 15% sustains, according to blue posts, are Crusader Strike, Judgment, and Divine Storm. These spells have a CD of 6, 8, and 10s respectively with a 1.5s CD with no haste rating. Let's examine the first 10s of the rotation.

Let's assume a rotation in the order the abilities are stated above. This implies a retribution paladin will use all of his main abilities within 4.5s and sit doing nothing for 1.5s. Then he will sit 0.5s before judgment is back, and then another 0.5 before Divine Storm.

Now let's view another rotation. Judgment is preferred as a first-use ability to proc librams and apply debuffs. Then Divine Storm would be used since the ability has a higher potential damage output - therefore you want Divine Storm back as soon as possible. Then Crusader Strike. Crusader strike is usable in 4.5s, Judgment is back in 3.5, and Divine Storm in 7. The paladin, in this initial rotation, is wasting 3.5 seconds where he could be using two spells.

For completion, let's examine a rotation of Judgment, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm. Judgment refreshes in 3.5s and Crusader strike in 3 causing the abilities to clash. If you delay Judgment, you reduce mana efficiency that the class (and raid) relies on. If you do not use crusader strike, you are losing 0.5s. Furthermore, after you expend both abilities 7.5-8s will have passed and Divine Storm will not be ready again. A paladin is losing 3.5s in the first 10 seconds as above.

Since these three abilities have different cool downs, the three cases above are rotated. The abilities must come up in one of the three orders above, and will not remain in any one throughout the fight. This implies throughout the fight a paladin would need 2 more abilities in order to not waste possible CD time.

That's a strictly positive analysis. A normal analysis deals with what "ought to be." I would state here that a paladin not using every possible CD he or she has on a damage ability is illogical. Any class in the game seeks to increase DPS at any point they can. However, paladins lack an ability not on a short cool down to do this. Therefore, a paladin must use Consecrate on any non-undead boss to mitigate some of the unused time. To do otherwise is, in the minds of many, an illogical step. Furthermore, on undead mobs a paladin must choose two abilities out of consecrate, exorcism, and holy wrath as he will often have 2 cool downs to fill. Finally, after 20% a paladin will switch to hammer of wrath, but in non-undead situations still have time for consecrate.
So a paladin must use 5 abilities to optimize his time expenditure, in non-undead situations he has 4 abilities, undead situations he has 6 abilities, and after 20% his choices increase to 5 and 7 abilities respectively.

(Crusader strike averages to (weapon damage*coefficient*art of war*crit chance) 1*1.10*1.2*1.29=1.7, and divine storm averages to 1*1.2*1.29*1.25=1.935 due to Righteous Vengeance. Critical strike chance is taken from Crusader Strike in the parse).
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Postby elfjorc » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:50 pm

The big problem is drains. Rets are hardly unique in eventually running OOM, Hunters can run themselves oom very easily and have to spend time in 50% dmg mode to get it back. The difference with Ret is that after you run oom, the tools to get it back like Seal of Wisdom aren't as effective.

I think their idea with Consecrate and stuff, if they do it right, isn't that bad. Against a non-human boss, you'd save some mana for the HoW phase and dump extra mana into Consecrates. Against an Undead boss, Exorcism becomes the mana dump. Theoretically since neither factor in PvP, you'd have extra mana to use on HoF, HoJ etc. THe problem is in getting that number exactly right, since it seems they don't want to give enough extra mana that you'll be healing yourself without running into killing people problems, which is fine. It's a lot harder when you factor in drains into the equation for sure, take the drain problem away and balancing the number (15%? 16%? 20%?) becomes infinitely easier. That's how I see it anyways.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:24 am

Knaughty wrote:Thephoenix (ret pally everyone is talking about via his WWS parse) was tossing out a lot of Consecrate, even on bosses, and apparently skipping CS/DS to do it, and still going OOM.

I did a parse of his DPM - he was skipping the wrong spells, by my math. The first spell you skip is Holy Wrath, then you skip Consecrate - for single target DPS while mana constrained. Exorcism is definitely in, as is Hammer of Wrath for last 20%.

Using AE spells for single target DPS is bad. The "mages don't use Arcane explosion on bosses" comparison GC used is the right one.

AE spells are for AE.


Yeah, that's weird.

On first glance, consecrate IS more raw dps than CS or DS for him. His CS damage /6 is technically less than his consecrate ticks.

But if you look at something like patchwerk... he was skipping CS and DS to power consecrate, but he was also not even able to power consecrate constantly. Most importantly, all his other options cost basically *half* of what consecrate does, so he could've been throwing out CS PLUS exorcism for less cost than consecrate, and come up with more damage done for less mana cost.

That's not the right approach when there's infinite mana... you prioritize whatever does the most dps. But if there isn't infinite mana, as they seem to want to at least try, you have to do whatever produces the most aggregate damage.

Of course... you can calculate relative DPS between your abilities ahead of time. It's much harder to gauge how long a fight will end up taking and plan your mana accordingly...

-- Looking at the numbers from patchwerk... I should see 16 exorcisms, as that's clearly the biggest hitter for the least mana. He only used 9. :(

-- Holy wrath is clearly garbage vs. a single-target. It's not worth casting unless you've got spare mana. Exorcism hits for 30% more for 60% less mana. 1 Consecrate deals more damage than a holy wrath *crit* for almost the same cost.

-- My rough eyeball of the numbers would put his damages per 1% base mana (pre-talents, scale everything up 10% for bene, and factor in glyphs etc) at:
Judge "infinite"
Exorcism 395
CS 290
DS 188
Cons 163
HW 116
HoW 463 (his crit's slightly inflated... i'd expect 80% crit rate but i don't have a non-crit value to factor in)

So,
judge > HoW > exo > CS > DS > Cons > HW if you can't use everything?
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