whoa whoa buff blood/matyr??? wtf

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Postby MDL » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:17 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Now, the bigger question is: Was that a problem in BC? Having a not-scaled-at-all setup never stopped prot and holy of leveling. And if you bitch about all specs being good to leveling, shove it somewhere uncomfortable for you. Every class has a better spec for leveling and calling that an issue is overkill.


Well, considering Blizzard has stated intentions to make soloing with non DPS specs easier, that being the major impetus to the rather sweeping Spellpower changes, and the fact that the rather significant 'scale with AP and SP' change to Paladins also happen to allow Prot and Holy specs to actually benefit from the gear available in the pre-Outlands content, there's some non trivial evidence to support the idea that such is the developers intent.

So glad you proposed such a reasonable and thought out response. You're truly doing a wonderful job of maintaining the well reasoned and thought out and polity discourse this site is known for.
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Postby Legionp » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:29 am

I'd suggest nerfing down Sheath of light, increasing JotW back up a tad, and increasing the SP coefficients on all seals.

This does a few things:
1) keeps Seal damage to the same scaling it is now for Ret because they have less SP

2) Allows Ret to toss heals when needed, but at a slightly reduced effect (at 70 my HL hits for about 5k)

3) Allows an increase in Holy and Prot DPS without affecting ret too much.

If you wanted to take things a step further to help prot catch up on DPS to the other tanks:

1) decrease the coefficient on RF

2) Convert more stam to SP - allows us to toss a heal if needed once our mob is dead, but more importantly increases our DPS while keeping TPS the same
2a) or you could convert a some stam to AP if that side effect isn't desired. Could this be an 11 pt talent? Too desirable for Ret maybe as http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVf0tbIufRsguAo would be the cookie cutter build. But hey, at least that'd guarantee all ret pallies would take kings :). Plus I'd want my 11 pointer to be a reactive skill that moves us away from a static 96969 rotation (think SnB type reactive).

3) to allow Ret to OT or tank 5 mans / heroics (I'm doing that now in my prot gear) Change CS / DS to act as holy damage for threat, even though it's damage is reduced by Armor
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Postby Kellann » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:29 am

Eanin wrote:Here's the problem as I see it:

They made prot tps scale off of AP. Whoops! Ret has more AP. Therefore, they start using our seals.



I think the problem is even simpler than that - they still haven't figured out a way to get paladins off of SpellPower (they only found a way to hide it in talents instead of gear).

They've just done it all in the wrong order thus far (hopefully they've caught on to it by now).

1st - remove Ret SpellPower (change the talent to a healing synergy with some sort of candy that gets them to take it).
2nd - 'twist the knobs' on AP coefficients until you're happy with ret's output. While you're at it, this is a good place to see if the DPS/DPM breakdown for their rotation is lame, and fix it.
3rd - Check holy's DPS while soloing - compare to other healing classes that would use SP. Adjust the SP coefficients to seals until they're at a happy place.
4th - Check Prots *DPS* and threat while tanking - compare it to other tanking classes. Twist the RF knob and the SP synergy until prot has similar (happy 5%) output compared to the other tanking classes.

Personally I don't much care if my DPS while tanking comes from AP or SP or straight from talents/abilities. If we manage to do the same, with the same gear, does it really matter how the talents make it happen.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:20 am

DeadMilliken wrote:Drama drama drama.

Seriously if 10-15dps returned killed you with a 25k hp pool, you were destined to die anyway.

Yes, The judgement hurts alot more (on avg ~500-750). But (and here's the clincher) you don't have to cast it when your about to die...you know maybe hit that Divine Protection, Lay on Hands, or Potion button before judging and killing yourself.

For Seal of blood to kill you, you would have to survive with under 30hp and then melee swing. Or ~.1% of your hp.


I would love to have the ability to predict when I'm about to take burst damage. I do have the ability to choose not to crit myself for 2k at random intervals.
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Postby Amanor » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:27 am

Macha wrote:
PsiVen wrote:SoB remains a terrible tanking seal.

Cons:
Will fucking kill your ass dead on the ground pushing daisies up with the stench of your rotting carcass which wouldn't stink if you'd only used SoV instead.


THIS.

Anyone here ever had one of these 300 HP survives? Grats - using SoB had wiped you there. Good job, let's just try him again because the Paladin has to damage himself and just wiped the raid.

Terrible, terrible tanking seal.


I disagree with this logic, because it implies that miniscule damage lumped over time is the primary cause of death and as such the reason for not using SoB.

By that same logic, any Paladin who didn't run with Spell Warding, Imp Devo Aura, and pile on Expertise as much as they could was doing very much the same thing in taking either extra spell damage, extra physical damage, or extra parries. And while many Pallies did justify the use of minor damage avoiding/reducing talents/stats with feeling better reducing all the damage they could, it's a tad ridiculous to presume that the one time in a thousand you survived because of two digit HP remaining merit such behavior.

AD can be justified because it saves people from wipes consistently. I cannot say keeping oneself from using SoB is anywhere near the same.

Also,
Candiru wrote:I think the best fix for SoV is to make it scale with FASTER weapons, which would then remove any desire for ret to use it.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. Rather than mess with Sheathe and have to balance everything it affects, adjusting SoV (and SoR for Holy) could keep scaling for Ret from getting out of hand without cutting down their SP.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:46 am

MDL wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:Now, the bigger question is: Was that a problem in BC? Having a not-scaled-at-all setup never stopped prot and holy of leveling. And if you bitch about all specs being good to leveling, shove it somewhere uncomfortable for you. Every class has a better spec for leveling and calling that an issue is overkill.


Well, considering Blizzard has stated intentions to make soloing with non DPS specs easier, that being the major impetus to the rather sweeping Spellpower changes, and the fact that the rather significant 'scale with AP and SP' change to Paladins also happen to allow Prot and Holy specs to actually benefit from the gear available in the pre-Outlands content, there's some non trivial evidence to support the idea that such is the developers intent.

So glad you proposed such a reasonable and thought out response. You're truly doing a wonderful job of maintaining the well reasoned and thought out and polity discourse this site is known for.
grats on mocking. Leveling as holy or prot didn't get any worse at all. All the changes that weren't specifically aimed at making solo leveling easier actually did make it easier anyway. The failsauce begins at 60 where holy and prot gear start to show up frequently.


I wonder why they truly keep paladins away from stances? Druids and Warriors, both tank classes with very different specs(and only one tanky), work based on stances, because otherwise kitty feral, and fury/arms would suffer the same problem that ret/prot pallies do. DKs aren't accounted because all specs work around both tank and dps, and even these have some dps/tanky benefits being pulled from presences to improve a side without raping the other with gunpowder. Paladins are the only of the four tank class that can do every thing at any given time if mana is present. Someone go and give us a stance please >.>
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Postby honorshammer » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:26 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:I wonder why they truly keep paladins away from stances? Druids and Warriors, both tank classes with very different specs(and only one tanky), work based on stances, because otherwise kitty feral, and fury/arms would suffer the same problem that ret/prot pallies do. DKs aren't accounted because all specs work around both tank and dps, and even these have some dps/tanky benefits being pulled from presences to improve a side without raping the other with gunpowder. Paladins are the only of the four tank class that can do every thing at any given time if mana is present. Someone go and give us a stance please >.>


What if Aura's were our answer to stances.

Retribution = Retribution Aura = +damage, -threat, -healing, can't use Vengeanace/Righteousness

Protection = Devotion Aura = damage reduction, +threat, -healing, can't use Command, Avenging Wrath gives 30% damage

Holy = Concentration Aura = -damage, -threat, +healing, can't use Righteous Defense, Avenging wrath give 30% more healing

Not sure what to do about the Resistance Auras.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:28 pm

Honorshammer wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:I wonder why they truly keep paladins away from stances? Druids and Warriors, both tank classes with very different specs(and only one tanky), work based on stances, because otherwise kitty feral, and fury/arms would suffer the same problem that ret/prot pallies do. DKs aren't accounted because all specs work around both tank and dps, and even these have some dps/tanky benefits being pulled from presences to improve a side without raping the other with gunpowder. Paladins are the only of the four tank class that can do every thing at any given time if mana is present. Someone go and give us a stance please >.>


What if Aura's were our answer to stances.

Retribution = Retribution Aura = +damage, -threat, -healing, can't use Vengeanace/Righteousness

Protection = Devotion Aura = damage reduction, +threat, -healing, can't use Command, Avenging Wrath gives 30% damage

Holy = Concentration Aura = -damage, -threat, +healing, can't use Righteous Defense, Avenging wrath give 30% more healing

Not sure what to do about the Resistance Auras.
Too many different auras with different uses. No good.

Nothing stops someone from having both aura and stance.
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Postby daemonym » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:32 pm

Honorshammer wrote:Not sure what to do about the Resistance Auras.


keep them just like they are but as a buff rather than an aura. such as 30 second duration and 25 second cool down, effects all friendly's within 30 yards, off GCD, only 1 up per pally at a time, then just add in their current effects.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:36 pm

daemonym wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:Not sure what to do about the Resistance Auras.


keep them just like they are but as a buff rather than an aura. such as 30 second duration and 25 second cool down, effects all friendly's within 30 yards, off GCD, only 1 up per pally at a time, then just add in their current effects.


Wow, not a chance. Maybe a 30 min up time no with cooldown.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:36 pm

Nothing stops someone from having both aura and stance.


Well, actually I'm pretty sure there would need to be a significant revamp of the code to allow both stances and auras as they exist currently.

Fridmarr wrote:Wow, not a chance. Maybe a 30 min up time no with cooldown.


Okay, but only if it costs more mana than I rez with!
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:56 pm

PsiVen wrote:
I would love to have the ability to predict when I'm about to take burst damage. I do have the ability to choose not to crit myself for 2k at random intervals.


....Is your JoB honestly hitting for 6k crit? Really?

I'd be shocked if you're getting 3k crits (1k back to self)

What is your AP / SP / Weapon dps?

What the heck does your white dmg swing crit for? 3k?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had based my usage on normal scaling for a 50% dmg increase...not a 300% dmg increase.

Based on that SoB should be returning maybe 45dmg on a slow 1hd'er crit
(white dmg crit ~1500, SoB ~450 crit dmg return 45dmg.)

Judgement ~2k crit 1k non-crit
(700dmg - 330 returned)
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:58 pm

Amanor wrote:
Macha wrote:
PsiVen wrote:SoB remains a terrible tanking seal.

Cons:
Will fucking kill your ass dead on the ground pushing daisies up with the stench of your rotting carcass which wouldn't stink if you'd only used SoV instead.


THIS.

Anyone here ever had one of these 300 HP survives? Grats - using SoB had wiped you there. Good job, let's just try him again because the Paladin has to damage himself and just wiped the raid.

Terrible, terrible tanking seal.


I disagree with this logic, because it implies that miniscule damage lumped over time is the primary cause of death and as such the reason for not using SoB.

By that same logic, any Paladin who didn't run with Spell Warding, Imp Devo Aura, and pile on Expertise as much as they could was doing very much the same thing in taking either extra spell damage, extra physical damage, or extra parries. And while many Pallies did justify the use of minor damage avoiding/reducing talents/stats with feeling better reducing all the damage they could, it's a tad ridiculous to presume that the one time in a thousand you survived because of two digit HP remaining merit such behavior.


Over a five minute fight, with a (rather conservative) 100 damage per swing with a 2.0 speed weapon, Seal of Blood would do 15,000 damage to the Paladin alone.

That is at least 1 big heal.

Now, seal of blood with http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37401 and 2000 attack power.

That's 280 DPS from Attack Power alone. Plus the DPS of the sword (143.4) times the speed (1.6) gets an average swing of 677.44, or 677. Plus another 28% holy damage from SoB nets you 189.6832, or 190, extra damage. That's 867 per swing. You take 86.7, or 87 damage, every 1.6 seconds.

That's 16,312.5 damage over the course of a five minute fight.

Now, lets assume 1500 Stamina, for an easy 450 Spell Power for our Tankadin.

Judgement of Blood is [0.36 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] to [0.36 * MW + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH]

For us that's .36 * 160 + .16 * 2000 + 25 * 450 to .36 * 299 + .16 * 2000 + .25 * 450, so 490.1 to 720.14. Averages 605.12, or 605.

Five minute fight, that's 37.5 judgements (37) for 22,385 damage, 33% of which the Paladin takes. That's 7,387 damage.

Total? 23,699 damage to the tank from his own Seal. Unmitigated.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:08 pm

Over a five minute fight, with a (rather conservative) 100 damage per swing with a 2.0 speed weapon, Seal of Blood would do 15,000 damage to the Paladin alone.


False

I don't even know where to begin on how you got that.

Lets say worst case you meant to say 400 white, ~100 SoB, 10dmg returned every 2sec.
5mins is 300sec. or 150 dmg procs

150 * 10 = 1,500 dmg.

Edit:

For the curious to take 15,000dmg from the seal alone over a 5min timeframe with a 2sec swing timer your avg white hit would be 3,571 white dmg per hit.

(100dmg returned per hit = 1000 SoB proc = 3571 white dmg)

Edit2: I'll double check myself and my scrolling combat UI when I get home. I was just testing SoV vs SoB on my gear yesterday for a generalized idea of how hard they would have to nerf SoV for SoB to be better for me.
Last edited by DeadMilliken on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Splug » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:11 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:Paladins are the only of the four tank class that can do every thing at any given time if mana is present. Someone go and give us a stance please >.>
The deathknight presences actually don't invoke seperate bars, and none of the abilities require a stance. In the terms you meant it, death knights also are capable of doing anything in every stance - just with an armor multiplier or a damage multipler. (In the specific terms you stated it, you are actually correct: paladins and druids are the only tanks who will ever have mana present, and druids lose feral abilities in mana-using forms. However, that interpretation is a bit self-defeating.)

Having auras and stances co-exist may actually be beyond the scope of the code. Auras, aspects, and stances all go to the same place, and that's indicative of them being coded similarly. However, the idea of having auras that do function as stances and just making the resistance buffs external is interesting. It would invoke other limitations, and the re-work of death knight auras to be unlinked from presences suggests Blizzard didn't like the implications there, but it is an intriguing concept.

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