Getting Blizzard out of the Seal/Judge Hole

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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:15 am

Trueth wrote:Sheath of Light: Grants 10/20/30% AP as +healing plus HOT affect on crit


Basically this means no one would ever take Sheathe.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:18 am

Everyone in PvP would.

And in PvE it would be very useful to make Art of War healing useful, that can save your life, especially with SoB damaging yourself. Take Sheath or you become a burden on your healers.

Does it matter if some Ret don't take Sheath? Having 3 points you have to spend isn't very interesting.

The gains from taking sheath are pretty huge for utility, you would be mad not to take it for PvP, and need a very special reason not to for PvE. (art of war can easily save your life, or another DPSers)
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:20 am

Candiru wrote:Everyone in PvP would.


It would be 5 talent points that do nothing for your role; damaging people.

No one would take it.

All hybrid utility has to be a secondary effect to the primary purpose of the talent, and for Ret that would be hurting things. That talent isn't for hurting things.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:20 am

Candiru wrote:
And in PvE it would be very useful to make Art of War healing useful, that can save your life, especially with SoB damaging yourself. Take Sheath or you become a burden on your healers.
SoB damage gets covered by so many forms of splashed healing that your statement can't be right in any raid situation.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:23 am

Art of war is a nice damage increase for 2 points.

Sheath would then cost 3 points to make those heals useful.

Have you tried PvP as ret? Instant Flash of Light (which always crit with sacred shield up) + Sheath hot is very very powerful for keeping you topped up. Not to mention the bubble + holy light to top you off.

It would then be 3 points you can choose to take or not. I don't see how its a problem if people don't take it and take other talents instead if they prefer. Choice is good.

If you think forcing ret to take Sheath is a good thing, then you can always add some other effect like 4/7/10% of your autoattack damage is holy instead of physical. The problem with it is the Spelldamage, since it buggers up any attempt to balance between the specs.

The spot healing of art of war + sheath can save your life in raids, if the healers are silenced, moving, healing the tank due to burst etc, an art of war heal is like taking a healing potion, with a 10s CD and no mat cost.

If you could spec imp.healing potions for 3 points to have a 10s CD and be unlimited use, would you honestly say no-one would ever take it for a PvE raid? That would own in Council or kalecgos or Brutallus for burn.
Last edited by Candiru on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:27 am

Whichever way you look at it Scaling in it's current incarnation is barfed..

Whilst we don't have any real issues with it atm....


The tanking Models for all four classes are directly translating DPS to TPS, our threat is artificially high due to RF scaling & JOL.

Holy DPS blows comparitively speaking.

Tweaking [AP] + [SP] Co-efficients won't resolve this... I don't even think it's even mathematically possible.

something will have to give somewhere.

Either Prot/Holy gets an additional damage modifier or increased [SP] for prot & increased [AP] for Holy
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Postby Lore » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:27 am

I still don't understand why everyone points to sheathe of light as omg source of all problems. Divine Strength gives a bigger scaling increase to ret DPS than Sheathe does.

It's really not hard to wrap your head around. SP and AP give roughly the same contribution to damage. AP = SP. Increasing SP by a percentage of AP is functionally equivalent to increasing AP by a percentage of AP, and I don't see anyone saying Improved Berserker Stance is causing scaling issues for Fury warriors.

"But it's scaling twice!" No, it's not. It's scaling once, off of two identical stats.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:28 am

Of course the healing from instaflash + sheath is valuable, but that doesn't make it any necessary for pve sustainability. It's not much different from our Touched by the Light. The healing bonus is nice, but we more or less don't give a damn.
Pallies and priests burn one gcd, druids burn a quicker gcd, and shaman can even totally do it without even noticing the difference.

SoB doesn't put a strain on the healers.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:30 am

Lore wrote:I still don't understand why everyone points to sheathe of light as omg source of all problems. Divine Strength gives a bigger scaling increase to ret DPS than Sheathe does.

It's really not hard to wrap your head around. SP and AP give roughly the same contribution to damage. AP = SP. Increasing SP by a percentage of AP is functionally equivalent to increasing AP by a percentage of AP, and I don't see anyone saying Improved Berserker Stance is causing scaling issues for Fury warriors.

"But it's scaling twice!" No, it's not. It's scaling once, off of two identical stats.


Lore, its the root of why holy DPS is so low.

If they buff spelldamage coefficients on judgement / SoR it makes it too OP for ret. if they lower the AP to compensate then it becomes worse scaling for prot.

Sheath dosen't stop ret being balanced itself, it stops holy and prot being balanced at the same time as ret.

This is why I suggest "baking in" sheath by increasing all AP coeff by 30% of the Spelldamage coeff and removing sheath.

Now there is an additional knob to turn (spelldamage coeff) which affects Holy and Prot, but not ret.

This would allow for Holly and prot and ret to be balanced, all at once, while being equivalent for ret to the current situation.
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Postby Bobness » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:40 am

As Ret I Have

1855 [AP] 557 [SP]

As Holy I have

478 [AP] 1250 [SP]

As Prot I have

1000 [AP] 363 [SP]

All unbuffed

However you juggle thos co-efficents ret always comes out top on average.
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Postby Noradin » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:40 am

Candiru wrote:
Sheath dosen't stop ret being balanced itself, it stops holy and prot being balanced at the same time as ret.

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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:44 am

Candiru wrote:
Lore wrote:I still don't understand why everyone points to sheathe of light as omg source of all problems. Divine Strength gives a bigger scaling increase to ret DPS than Sheathe does.

It's really not hard to wrap your head around. SP and AP give roughly the same contribution to damage. AP = SP. Increasing SP by a percentage of AP is functionally equivalent to increasing AP by a percentage of AP, and I don't see anyone saying Improved Berserker Stance is causing scaling issues for Fury warriors.

"But it's scaling twice!" No, it's not. It's scaling once, off of two identical stats.


Lore, its the root of why holy DPS is so low.

If they buff spelldamage coefficients on judgement / SoR it makes it too OP for ret. if they lower the AP to compensate then it becomes worse scaling for prot.

Sheath dosen't stop ret being balanced itself, it stops holy and prot being balanced at the same time as ret.

This is why I suggest "baking in" sheath by increasing all AP coeff by 30% of the Spelldamage coeff and removing sheath.

Now there is an additional knob to turn (spelldamage coeff) which affects Holy and Prot, but not ret.

This would allow for Holly and prot and ret to be balanced, all at once, while being equivalent for ret to the current situation.
Yeah it does make quite a bit of sense. By allowing better sp scaling since ret won't have it, holy and prot would get a reasonable increase. I don't see increasing sp scaling as bad in the mix of desirable stats, since str will still be superior to sp.


The Devs don't like to read solutions, but questions that put the problem in evidence. Can someone write this (sheath goes ap+heal+hot insetad of ap+sp+hot) thing in a manner that you not only put the problem in evidence, but also give them the solution and make they think it was their idea?
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Postby lusisia » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:35 am

Widdox wrote:
Candiru wrote:No, you cannot have damage based on Primary stats (Str/Int/Agi/Stam)

Damage in this game is only based on the secondary stats of AP or Spelldamage (and BV as a special exception)

You can make secondary stats increased by primary ones, (eg int->AP or int->spelldamage)

This means you can have:

Holy Use spelldamage (from spelldamage and int)
Prot use AP and spelldamage (from Str and Stam)
Ret use AP (from Str)

Now have SoR scale off mostly Spelldamage, with a little AP
SoV off AP and Spelldamage
SoB off just AP

Now SoV is best for prot, SoR for holy and SoB for ret.

Do you see?


No cause ret would use the SP and AP one. Unless they made it 1h only.


Right. This is the thing people are failing to see. Ret ALREADY used SoV/SoCor in beta when it was the more powerful option.

I'm pretty convinced that the only way to get out of the quagmire is to have seals respect "handedness". SoComm/SoB are 2H. The rest are 1h. Then they can nerf/buff each seal without worry about Ret just simply swapping seals.
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Postby Macha » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:20 am

Lore wrote: Increasing SP by a percentage of AP is functionally equivalent to increasing AP by a percentage of AP, and I don't see anyone saying Improved Berserker Stance is causing scaling issues for Fury warriors.


Ah, think it through. You are on to a core issue of the Paladin class.
See, the difference to warriors is that warriors have stances that are exclusive, unlike Paladins, who can use every ability in their spellbook at any time.

This increased AP warriors get is tied to Berserker Stance, as you notice. So are skills. That makes it impossible for a fury warrior to benefit from Berserker stance while using protection abilities to abuse scaling factors to do dps. If they could, many might use Devastate.
On top of it, Defensive stance also has an inherent damage malus that Protection has to spec in to remove. Basically, you are wrong, but for a different reason than you think.

Paladins can double dip. This is because they can use Ret scaling to use prot/holy abilities. This is why seals are getting nerfed.

Fury warriors cannot double dip. Stances prevent this directly - the increased AP is not only gone in defensive stance, the stance itself reduces damage significantly.


There is another difference: The amount. Sheath of Light scales far better than Improved Berserkerstance, I believe.

Sheath of Light is not the core issue, true - but it is a major symptom, akin to a disease. The fever is not the core issue of the disease, but a major troubling factor nevertheless, no?
The core issue is that we can use all abilities in our spellbook at all times, require to be able to use AP as both Prot and Ret, and thus have to have abilities that all specs can use which always will benefit more for Ret than the others.
We do not shift into another form that only allows Ret abilities, nor do we move into another stance. This is what allows these troubles to begin with. Ret can use Consecration. Ret can use Righteousness/Vengeance.

The only similar class to this are Shamans, but they avoid it nicely. Notice that spelldamage only affects one kind of move, and AP only another. This reduces scaling troubles quite a bit. An enhancement shaman does not suddenly use elemental abilities better than elemental.


No, Sheath is not the issue in itself. It's just the abscess. And you know why blizzard will not ever change this?
Flexibility. A while ago, someone in this forum suggested to tie seals to weapon type. A simple thing. It was rejected by quite a few people because this might reduce theorethical versality - even though in reality, there are few to no cases where this is ever an issue. And that was just seals.
Doing this to other abilities would cause an uproar, I'm sure of that. And yet...this is what they have to do, somehow, and so far, they seem to be unwilling, making our class far more volatile to nerfs affecting all specs than any other.

We use a holy ability to tank. Ret uses the same holy ability to dps. Ret scales far better than we do. Problem right there. If it is balanced for us, it's OP for ret. If it's balanced for Ret, it's pathetic for us. Seals are the same.
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Postby Daeren » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:44 am

Lore wrote:I still don't understand why everyone points to sheathe of light as omg source of all problems. Divine Strength gives a bigger scaling increase to ret DPS than Sheathe does.

Disagree.
Point for point, it doesn't.
Divine strength doesn't buff AP gained from flask, direct AP nor percentage increasing to AP in the same degree.
If you have 1000 strength, it's likely that you will have 3-4k AP totally.
Also, 1 point of spell damage is more than 1 point of AP in terms of itemization.

It's really not hard to wrap your head around. SP and AP give roughly the same contribution to damage. AP = SP. Increasing SP by a percentage of AP is functionally equivalent to increasing AP by a percentage of AP, and I don't see anyone saying Improved Berserker Stance is causing scaling issues for Fury warriors.

"But it's scaling twice!" No, it's not. It's scaling once, off of two identical stats.
But then again, it scales too well.
Following the same reason, you could add that destruction warlocks gain 50% more spell power for 5 points high in the tree, and then they nerf Corruption and CoA to make sure warlocks don't get overpowered. It's like nerfing whirlwind because fury warriros scale too well with it. Nerfing autoshot because BM hunters scale too well with it.

One talent that is deep in one tree so that only one spec can get it, and is as powerful as this so it needs to get nerfed, then you don't go and chop away at baseline abilities. It's just stupid.
The big difference is also that divine strength is first tier in the protection tree, which makes it easily accesible for everyone.
ShoL is hard to get, and gives an insane scaling to retribution that causes problems. I don't think anyone would have minded JotW if retribution didn't have as strong heals as they do now. The scaling is also out of control.

1 strength = 1,15 with divine strength. Then add 1,1 for kings and 1,1 for TSA/AM/UR. We're now on 1,3915 str per point of baseline strength. This gives 0,835 spell power per point of strength.
Let's see how much spell power is in terms of itemization:
1 / 0,86 = 1,16 spell power per itemization point.
The loss is only 28% in spell power if you were to put strength gems in gear instead of spell power. And that makes it hard to compare to other talents.
If 1 str gives 0,835 spell power increase, then itemization wise it's 0,835 * 0,86 = 0,72. That means that essentially, you gain a 72% more itemization benefit from the same stat. For THREE points.

It doesn't exactly require all that brain to see that when we have spells that is supposed to scale well off both stats, it's not going to work.


To put it simple, if Seal of Balancedness scaled the same amount if you wore 100 points of strength or 100 / 0,86 = 116 spell power, then adding sheath of light just caused that seal to do 72% more damage.
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