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Blue Post Trackers

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Blue Post Trackers

Postby Dianora » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:10 am

A reminder, for those of you who didn't have time to parse through thousands of pages on the official forum, MMO Champion Blue Tracker is a nice resource to use when trying to track down the lastest dialogue from the Blue posters.

For example, the current thread on a post nerf WWS report of Naxx25 raid.
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Re: Blue Post Trackers

Postby Drathian » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:20 pm

Dianora wrote:A reminder, for those of you who didn't have time to parse through thousands of pages on the official forum, MMO Champion Blue Tracker is a nice resource to use when trying to track down the lastest dialogue from the Blue posters.

For example, the current thread on a post nerf WWS report of Naxx25 raid.


Thanks for posting this again. I always seem to lose track of this site.
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Re: Blue Post Trackers

Postby Aranbenjo » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:28 am

Drathian wrote:
Dianora wrote:A reminder, for those of you who didn't have time to parse through thousands of pages on the official forum, MMO Champion Blue Tracker is a nice resource to use when trying to track down the lastest dialogue from the Blue posters.

For example, the current thread on a post nerf WWS report of Naxx25 raid.


Thanks for posting this again. I always seem to lose track of this site.


It's me or it seems that GC is feed up with all the whining? :D
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Postby Tev » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:44 am

Um wow. I just read through all of GCs responces and can't help but think WTF?

For this character, that added an additional 6% or so to dps. If the player had not used those abilities, he might have used the mana on something else, so you can't even argue his dps would be 6% lower. I don't think "Ret should consistently top dps meters when fighting undead" is going to give us a good design.


What happened to the GC we knew and loved because this can't be him. It sounds to me like "We will let you keep those abilities, but you wont have the mana to use them, so say good-bye to your undead damage advantage".

Whats sad is instead of reasonable counter explanations, he spent most of the post refuting its accuracy. He doesn't even understand the simple fact that this paladin had to burn Dark Runes, Mana Pots, and even LoH on himself to be able to add those abilities into his rotation, as well as Consecrate. And with all of that, the paladin is still far below that 5% mark they stated.

I can't believe this, is this how they take all player reports that counter what they state, by refuting it, ignoring it, and throwing it away? No wonder the game is in its current state and only going to get worse before it gets better.
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Postby Origon » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:52 am

How would that dps meter look if the pally instead of consecrating / holy wrath / exorcism saved that mana and popped haste pots? any theorycrafting possible?
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Postby Andryana » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:03 am

Well you can only use one pot per fight now anyway so not sure it would be a major improvement.
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Postby Macha » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:48 am

Well, this GC sure is one that would nerf all Paladin specs for no reason, then only un-nerf Ret partially. Thus her arguments do not surprise me at all.

After all, if Ret isn't supposed to be a bit higher in an undead instance while using anti-undead skills, where is Ret supposed to be in non-undead instances?
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Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:08 am

Tev wrote:Um wow. I just read through all of GCs responces and can't help but think WTF?

For this character, that added an additional 6% or so to dps. If the player had not used those abilities, he might have used the mana on something else, so you can't even argue his dps would be 6% lower. I don't think "Ret should consistently top dps meters when fighting undead" is going to give us a good design.


What happened to the GC we knew and loved because this can't be him. It sounds to me like "We will let you keep those abilities, but you wont have the mana to use them, so say good-bye to your undead damage advantage".

Thephoenix (ret pally everyone is talking about via his WWS parse) was tossing out a lot of Consecrate, even on bosses, and apparently skipping CS/DS to do it, and still going OOM.

I did a parse of his DPM - he was skipping the wrong spells, by my math. The first spell you skip is Holy Wrath, then you skip Consecrate - for single target DPS while mana constrained. Exorcism is definitely in, as is Hammer of Wrath for last 20%.

Using AE spells for single target DPS is bad. The "mages don't use Arcane explosion on bosses" comparison GC used is the right one.

AE spells are for AE.
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:43 am

There's nothing wrong with what GC is saying at all. He's also starting discussion, getting different viewpoints, giving another viewpoint etc., which is always a good thing. And I find myself agreeing with some of his points for sure.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:14 am

GC brought up something interesting: Ret won't have mana to spam everything, but will be able to keep a basic cycle. If that cycle is enough, then the loss of sustainability in trade of better options make sense. It's a bit like that with rogues(qq all you want about infinite energy, a rogue without cooldowns is all amounts of fail you can imagine, that's why they have so many and on relatively short cds)

I have yet to hear an enh shaman complaining about mana but I don't know the class well so I can't talk about it.
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Postby Flashbane » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:56 am

elfjorc wrote:There's nothing wrong with what GC is saying at all. He's also starting discussion, getting different viewpoints, giving another viewpoint etc., which is always a good thing. And I find myself agreeing with some of his points for sure.


yar some of his points do make sense actually.

Hope fully Blizzard in coming something good for either Prot or Holy....

/Pray harder....
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Postby Tev » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:06 am

Snake-Aes wrote:GC brought up something interesting: Ret won't have mana to spam everything, but will be able to keep a basic cycle. If that cycle is enough, then the loss of sustainability in trade of better options make sense. It's a bit like that with rogues(qq all you want about infinite energy, a rogue without cooldowns is all amounts of fail you can imagine, that's why they have so many and on relatively short cds)

I have yet to hear an enh shaman complaining about mana but I don't know the class well so I can't talk about it.


Enh Shamans have int on their gear and their prima mana restoration ability scales with Attack Power. A very poor comparison to a paladin who has no int in their gear and no scaling in their primary mana restoration ability. Best comparison an Enh shammy would have is a hunter.

As for paladins, our mechanic is unique, the "blue rage bar" is so far from what it is its not even funny. If a ret paladin for any reason ever hits 0 mana, they are dead in the water completely until fsr kicks in long enough to regen that paladins mana up enough to cast a judgement. This is compounded by the fact that if during the time we are "in the red" with mana and our seal expired, we now need close to 500 mana to reseal, and then however much mana it takes to judge.

A hunter can literally within 12 second completely shut down a ret paladin and reduce them to nothing but auto-attack for an entire fight. And what about fights where mobs have a mana burn? Better off bringing a rogue in greens than a ret pally in full epics because the rogue will be able to do more damage.

Until they address these issues, ret paladins will still be lolret for another expansion. I cannot help but feel they buffed ret pallies too much, then decided to punish them for being buffed for all of... 2 weeks on live?
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Postby Arcand » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:08 am

Snake-Aes wrote:I have yet to hear an enh shaman complaining about mana but I don't know the class well so I can't talk about it.


Here's one data point: my enhancement shaman with nothing better than T4, can sustain a full melee/shock rotation and keep four totems up and summon elementals and wolves, continuously, if JoW is up. I've done this for 6-7 minutes without using a potion.

The only way I can run out my mana in any kind of hurry is if I use Maelstrom Weapon stacks (next lightning/heal spell is instant cast, available every 10-15? seconds) every time they happen and use them on Chain Lightning or Chain Heal.

Doing all the Quel'danas dailies at a fairly fast pace, I'll drink zero to two times grand total. In five-mans, not having water just means I cut fire totems out of my trash rotation.

Enhancement, as long as you don't flagrantly piss away mana, has enviable sustainability.
Last edited by Arcand on Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Widdox » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:08 am

Knaughty wrote:
Tev wrote:Um wow. I just read through all of GCs responces and can't help but think WTF?

For this character, that added an additional 6% or so to dps. If the player had not used those abilities, he might have used the mana on something else, so you can't even argue his dps would be 6% lower. I don't think "Ret should consistently top dps meters when fighting undead" is going to give us a good design.


What happened to the GC we knew and loved because this can't be him. It sounds to me like "We will let you keep those abilities, but you wont have the mana to use them, so say good-bye to your undead damage advantage".

Thephoenix (ret pally everyone is talking about via his WWS parse) was tossing out a lot of Consecrate, even on bosses, and apparently skipping CS/DS to do it, and still going OOM.

I did a parse of his DPM - he was skipping the wrong spells, by my math. The first spell you skip is Holy Wrath, then you skip Consecrate - for single target DPS while mana constrained. Exorcism is definitely in, as is Hammer of Wrath for last 20%.

Using AE spells for single target DPS is bad. The "mages don't use Arcane explosion on bosses" comparison GC used is the right one.

AE spells are for AE.


I tend to agree, and I wish I didnt use consecrate in my rotation, but when I do, Im tanking and have the mana regen for it. The only reason it is used is there is not a "spamable" ability as a paladin. Casters don't use AE abilities because their time could be better spent using something else. Its the desire to use every single GCD that gets ret paladin's in trouble.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:20 am

Widdox wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
Tev wrote:Um wow. I just read through all of GCs responces and can't help but think WTF?

For this character, that added an additional 6% or so to dps. If the player had not used those abilities, he might have used the mana on something else, so you can't even argue his dps would be 6% lower. I don't think "Ret should consistently top dps meters when fighting undead" is going to give us a good design.


What happened to the GC we knew and loved because this can't be him. It sounds to me like "We will let you keep those abilities, but you wont have the mana to use them, so say good-bye to your undead damage advantage".

Thephoenix (ret pally everyone is talking about via his WWS parse) was tossing out a lot of Consecrate, even on bosses, and apparently skipping CS/DS to do it, and still going OOM.

I did a parse of his DPM - he was skipping the wrong spells, by my math. The first spell you skip is Holy Wrath, then you skip Consecrate - for single target DPS while mana constrained. Exorcism is definitely in, as is Hammer of Wrath for last 20%.

Using AE spells for single target DPS is bad. The "mages don't use Arcane explosion on bosses" comparison GC used is the right one.

AE spells are for AE.


I tend to agree, and I wish I didnt use consecrate in my rotation, but when I do, Im tanking and have the mana regen for it. The only reason it is used is there is not a "spamable" ability as a paladin. Casters don't use AE abilities because their time could be better spent using something else. Its the desire to use every single GCD that gets ret paladin's in trouble.


It's not just that. The damage from Consecrate keeps Ret paladins competitive on the damage charts. Take it away and that's a 10% reduction in DPS for most Ret paladins.

So, if you nerf their damage and take them to 92% of a Rogue, then you take away another 10% of their damage through regen mechanics, they're hurting a lot worse than the initial math would lead one to believe.

I agree with another poster, but I can't remember if it was here or at the official forums; balance around mana OR cooldowns, not both.
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