How hard did the Nerf hit our TPS?

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Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:24 am

Sometimes I read comments on this forum and shake my head.


We do less DPS while tanking vs the other tanks.
We have higher threat modifiers because of this.
The experience of mainy well respected Paladins tanking in Beta seems to say they we produce less TPS. I put more stock in experiences than of theorycrafting.


As of right now our lack of DPS is not a huge issue.
Will we it be in the future?

We don't know.
But to dismiss it as an issue completely seems like a stupid decision on the part of some people in this thread..


As of right now our Lack of TPS vs the other tanks is not a huge issue.
The seal judgement nerf will increase that gap.
Will this be an issue in the future?

We don't know.
But from past experience we know that DPS scales better than tanks since this game went live.

To dismiss this as a possible issue for later content in WotLK also seems like a stupid decision on the part of some people in this thread.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:03 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:The experience of mainy well respected Paladins tanking in Beta seems to say they we produce less TPS. I put more stock in experiences than of theorycrafting.

I'm not actually suggesting they're wrong. We're comparing a class that has static threat values and higher dps versus one with a massive multiplication.

In order to "balance" that, the one with multipliers is going to start lower. It's all a case of where they've placed the point of inflection, which "dead letters" is supporting as somewhere within the first tier.

In fact it's precisely the same as having lower base health and higher stamina scaling.
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Postby Rothes » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:47 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:The experience of mainy well respected Paladins tanking in Beta seems to say they we produce less TPS. I put more stock in experiences than of theorycrafting.

I'm not actually suggesting they're wrong. We're comparing a class that has static threat values and higher dps versus one with a massive multiplication.

In order to "balance" that, the one with multipliers is going to start lower. It's all a case of where they've placed the point of inflection, which "dead letters" is supporting as somewhere within the first tier.

In fact it's precisely the same as having lower base health and higher stamina scaling.


I thought all tanks now scaled with attack power. I am pretty sure they even made sunder's threat scale with it. They wanted to get away from static threat increases.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:51 pm

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Postby Macha » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:46 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:In fact it's precisely the same as having lower base health and higher stamina scaling.


Which does not bode well:
Stamina scaling right now makes it impossible to ever even catch up with warriors in health in the same gear. We need over 1000 Stamina on top of Naxx25/EOE gear to get equal - and that is impossible with the item formula being the way it is.

Us having less health is not a problem as such, but people keep repeating the falsehood that we somehow catch up to warriors at some point in wotlk. We will not, and cannot this expansion. The nerf to our stamina scaling ensured that.


Also, this far-lower-dps-than-any-other-tank is a concern while soloing and leveling. Remember when GC stated that one of their goal was to enable tanks to level and especially solo(dailies etc) reasonably well? Works for every other tank, but not for us. Our dps just was nerfed repeatedly.
This is actually the main concern I have. It sucks to have to respec to actually do something even reasonably well. Other tanks don't have to. The other tanks in my guild will level in their tanking specs. I cannot, I'll take almost twice as long, thanks to low damage and a terrible ressource system. Nerfing it even more just added to this.

[quotee]
At best conjecture, at worst openly false. You're comparing 2 classes rather than 4 and ignoring sizable amounts of encounter specific information.
[/quote]

Wrong.

That there are 4 tanks is strictly meaningless. The warrior is our closest counterpart, and easiest to compare to. The existance of two other classes does not change that we are inferior to warriors in every way that actually matters. This directly causes that there is currently no fight in WOTLK where Paladins are offering an advantage. It either doesn't matter, or we are straight out disadvantaged.

If there is A, alpha, 2 and 3, 3 is still bigger than 2. A and alpha being around have no effect on 3 being bigger than 2.

Do not close your eyes to facts, it does not make them go away. Quite simple, this behaviour of yours is what turns us into "Bloke-Down-The-Pub". It would be more reasonable to actually aknowledge our flaws, instead of building up smokescreens and pointing at entirely unrelated things to evade the point because you somehow have an issue with criticism being posted.

Again, isolated fact is isolated.


Fail argument is failure. You are again trying to evade the point, especially since "5% of the raids healing" depends on many factors, for example a Ret paladin being present(he will do it instead of you, for better results), and the raid actually taking so much raid damage to begin with. Most of these "5%" are overhealing.

Not to mention: Hai, soloviability, something that is a design goal. Is this really so difficult for you?
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:39 pm

Macha wrote:Do not close your eyes to facts, it does not make them go away. Quite simple, this behaviour of yours is what turns us into "Bloke-Down-The-Pub". It would be more reasonable to actually aknowledge our flaws, instead of building up smokescreens and pointing at entirely unrelated things to evade the point because you somehow have an issue with criticism being posted.

Perhaps I didn't explain the intent of that comment especially well.

The bloke down the pub is a single data point. It's vague, open to interpretation and contextual conjecture.

We've got a limited number of reports from beta, in absence of gear or situation, and a handful of theory crafting done by people without a full command of the facts (myself included). They're all valuable and noteworthy, I won't say they're not, but if you wish to use them as evidence to support a position we're into the realm of lies, bloody lies and statistics. Ignoring the strength, consistency and context of data in order to use it to bolster an opinion. Looking at things in isolation to related events, my objection to which you've deemed evading the issue, is a similar state of affairs.

Have opinions, voice beliefs that are supported by others experiences, by all means, but making blanket statements about definite states is entirely false.

I'm not even saying anyone is wrong, but there's a very definite difference between opinion and fact, and right now we have opinions and blizzard has facts. They're outlandish and bizarre facts that are often contradictory and in serious need of the application of common sense, but they are solid and supported.

The way to combat issues we percieve is to analyse and report, not to produce wave on wave of falsely labelled conjecture. Spiced, of course, with some personal attacks.
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Postby Arcand » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:06 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:...right now we have opinions and blizzard has facts.


Quite possibly the wrong facts, nested in some invalid assumptions. Remember how close together in time were GC's "If we were assuming that warriors aren't getting BoSanc..." and our sudden 3% mitigation buff?

Blizzard has access to all kinds of information. I don't think it's at all safe to assume that they know what to do with it, or what questions to ask, or what knobs to turn to get the WoW machine adjusted properly.

They're definitely not averse to saying 'close enough', to our detriment, when they're under time pressure.
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Postby Ilara » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:14 pm

Arcand wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:...right now we have opinions and blizzard has facts.


Quite possibly the wrong facts, nested in some invalid assumptions. Remember how close together in time were GC's "If we were assuming that warriors aren't getting BoSanc..." and our sudden 3% mitigation buff?

Blizzard has access to all kinds of information. I don't think it's at all safe to assume that they know what to do with it, or what questions to ask, or what knobs to turn to get the WoW machine adjusted properly.

They're definitely not averse to saying 'close enough', to our detriment, when they're under time pressure.


I agree to an extent. there are a hell of a lot of varying situations to look at. Can't blame em for stress, would be a nightmare to pick though every little number. It seems pretty often to me that they seem to miss the one we are looking at though. This is where shit hits the fan.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:20 am

Arcand wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:...right now we have opinions and blizzard has facts.


Quite possibly the wrong facts, nested in some invalid assumptions. Remember how close together in time were GC's "If we were assuming that warriors aren't getting BoSanc..." and our sudden 3% mitigation buff?

Blizzard has access to all kinds of information. I don't think it's at all safe to assume that they know what to do with it, or what questions to ask, or what knobs to turn to get the WoW machine adjusted properly.

They're definitely not averse to saying 'close enough', to our detriment, when they're under time pressure.

Oh ya, they've proved time and again they're bad at analysis of the facts, but they have access to the games code itself, so no matter how ham fisted they are at utilising them, they are facts.

Whatever the actual situation here, they've changed our threat by 3-5% without any line of reasoning and describe it as "fine". I know I would lose sleep over that kind of number fudging.
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