GC damage control post #2

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Postby Dianora » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:27 am

Fizzgig wrote:
Dianora wrote:
elfjorc wrote:They've already said Holy DPS is a concern.

If they'd buffed it already and were nerfing SoV/SoR after it would kinda counteract the buff, if they do it after they don't run into that. Not to mention it isn't a pressing thing to happen right now, as long as they have it done by Nov 13, which is still two weeks away, time for them to discuss whatever, focusing on raid dps from classes is probably their priority before then.



We're likely to be 2 weeks away from 3.0.3, the nerf patch. You think their priority will be to fix Holy/Protection DPS after WotLK? No, their priority will be to keep Northrend server up and running. Enjoy the nerfed Holy/Protection DPS for a while because they literally have a much bigger fish to fry. I sincerely don't see DEV coming back to 'fix' Holy/Protection until Ret is further nerfed and then 3.0.4, if we're lucky.


I dont even need to read your posts anymore, I just see your avatar and know "the dev's hate us they dont do anything for us" is coming in some form or another.


No I don't think the dev hates us. I believe dev have no idea how to balance Paladin. No need to implied malice when incompetency works just fine. The WotLK beta experience is basically a replay of what has already occured twice.

As for the timeline I put up, do you sincerely believe that fixing holy/protection paladin dps is more important than to keep expansion continent server up?
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:31 am

Levantine wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
You missed a couple knaughty.

We are the most vulnerable to fear, silence and mana burn effects of all the tanks.

We have the lease tools to deal with casters.


Underlined parts are not going to effect tanks anymore, said the blues.


I believe they said limit these in boss encounters...nothing about not being there for trash etc...

All this shows is that they are willing to gimp their encounter designs rather than give all tanks equivalent tools.
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Postby Obrimos » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:35 am

Fizzgig wrote:
Obrimos wrote:
Fizzgig wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
Back then we where fucked up royaly , yet we didn't have so much whine as we have now...


I am quoting this for truth and not typing QFT for emphasis.

I am coming to these forums less and less as it's more and more becoming the paladin class forums on the official boards. Everything isn't perfect but some of you people are arguing and bitching for the sake of bitching because at some point in your WoW career some jerkoff told you that you sucked cause you were a pally tank.


Wait, what? Seriously? People on here are bitching about the math and the amount of misinformation about Ret and all you have to say is "LAWL UR THE GEN FORUMS".

Seriously. This is insipid at it's finest. This board continues to be a great place to discuss things and it's especially important for us to pay attention to class-wide nerfs. It's especially important to point out when we're numerically behind everyone, even if it is by a couple percentage points, because history has proven that this is the difference between buff-boting and tanking.

Eternal vigiliance is the price of equality. Nerfs only win when good men do nothing.


Show me where there's math at all in this thread showing how Ret cannot keep up a dps rotation. Or where we're that far behind other tank threat at 80. I love this place I'm not saying that, but since wrath has come out the stickies and moderated posts alone show that there is a large portion of the community here doing nothing but complaining and flaming unjustly. I applaud Lore and the other mods for trying to keep it on lock down, its just disheartening.


You don't seem to love this place, in fact, your post that I quoted instead shows that you love snark and to bitch about what other people see as potential problems.

We were already behind in threat, by a marginal amount but we were behind. It was one of those bullet points when anyone would go over what Protection 'needs'. I'm an advocate for full and complete equality; I want to have the exact same surviability and exact same potential threat output as another tank. At all times. At all gear levels. To do otherwise is, in my opinion, D&D balancing and setting up for fail. Fighters and Wizards in D&D are WAAAAAY out of balance at all levels of play because "Fighters start strong and end weaker while Wizards start weak and end as gods of the earth." That kind of balance is asinine and idiotic. It creates an understood disparity with the assumption that everyone will always play all levels with every character.

By end game, if were balanced like that, we would never tank. If we wanted to see Icecrown, we'd heal. 'Cause we're the Fighters of the tanking crowd. These kinds of nerfs create situations where we fall further behind; while our threat was "competitive" before, and it'll still be higher than the DPS, it's going to fall quite a bit for us. That is, in my opinion, unacceptable. We should reach absolute and constant parity with, at least, Warriors due to the classes being so similar. Homogenization is going to end up happening because of the fact that we're both tanks that use 1-handers and shileds, wear plate, and gain threat by attacking while using mitigation abilities to not die.

Anyway, this is apart from the fact that the most flaming I've seen is from Knaughty and the people bitching about the people who are worried. Again, your tone and your post are insipid. They communicate issues that don't exist and perpetuate the problem you're bitching about.

You're the problem. Stop the hate.
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Postby Fizzgig » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:42 am

Dianora wrote:No I don't think the dev hates us. I believe dev have no idea how to balance Paladin. No need to implied malice when incompetency works just fine. The WotLK beta experience is basically a replay of what has already occurred twice.

As for the time line I put up, do you sincerely believe that fixing holy/protection paladin dps is more important than to keep expansion continent server up?


I think it's silly to think that they can balance all the other classes except us. In my opinion all 3 specs are better than they were, gaps are closer. Just because we're better I'm not saying just take everything because they have graced us with a few overall buffs, however everyone is flipping out entirely too much lately. The mitigation was a perfect example. We thought we were a ton behind, then a thread showing actual scales shows we were only 1-2% off, on top of that we got an extra 3% mitigation which means in certain situations we may actually take less damage than warriors.

As far as the time line goes I think with them intending to make everything as equal as possible we are and will be fine by the time people are actually raiding Naxx
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:03 am

Fizzgig wrote:I think it's silly to think that they can balance all the other classes except us. In my opinion all 3 specs are better than they were, gaps are closer.


Just wait for the next extention, we'll be even closer.

No seriously, they did not balance all the other classes but they usually have 2 of 3 trees working well which wasn't the case for the paladins.
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Postby Dianora » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:09 am

Belarkan wrote:
Fizzgig wrote:I think it's silly to think that they can balance all the other classes except us. In my opinion all 3 specs are better than they were, gaps are closer.


Just wait for the next expansion, we'll be even closer.

No seriously, they did not balance all the other classes but they usually have 2 of 3 trees working well which wasn't the case for the paladins.


Discipline Priest were basically told that their raiding issue will be addressed in WotLK. Throughout TBC, they're arena healer only. This is the Blizzard's class balancing.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:19 am

Dianora wrote:Discipline Priest were basically told that their raiding issue will be addressed in WotLK. Throughout TBC, they're arena healer only. This is the Blizzard's class balancing.


They still had holy and shadow.
As far as it goes in my guild we have raided with discipline priest, moonkins, amrs or fury warriors... whatever class/spec except one.... Ret.

Not to mention prot is a major failure according to Blizard's goals.
They meant to make it an off tank just like the druids were.
er... what are we good at while not tanking ? Buffing can be made before the fight :)

And it's not like retri was an arena spec.
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Postby Vengeful » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:29 am

;_;
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Postby Vengeful » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:29 am

;_;
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Postby Fizzgig » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:32 am

Obrimos wrote:You don't seem to love this place, in fact, your post that I quoted instead shows that you love snark and to bitch about what other people see as potential problems.


Listen man I don't want to get into a flame post with you. I in no way was being snarky, if you dont think that in the past 3 months there has been an unprecedented amount of moderation due to qq then I dont know what to tell you. I'm not complaining about those voicing concerns intelligently but the "they always do this to us" does nothing for anyone.
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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:34 am

Discipline Priest were basically told that their raiding issue will be addressed in WotLK. Throughout TBC, they're arena healer only. This is the Blizzard's class balancing.


You can't expect that when you two talent trees with the same role , aka dps or healing , to not have one better then other at the role
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Postby elfjorc » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:51 am

Dianora wrote:
Belarkan wrote:
Fizzgig wrote:I think it's silly to think that they can balance all the other classes except us. In my opinion all 3 specs are better than they were, gaps are closer.


Just wait for the next expansion, we'll be even closer.

No seriously, they did not balance all the other classes but they usually have 2 of 3 trees working well which wasn't the case for the paladins.


Discipline Priest were basically told that their raiding issue will be addressed in WotLK. Throughout TBC, they're arena healer only. This is the Blizzard's class balancing.


As a person with both a priest and a pally Disc Priests are def worse off than Holy Pallies right now. It's not exactly been addressed when Holy Priests blow them away at their supposed strengths, so it's def not anti-Pally.
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Postby Obrimos » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:53 am

Fizzgig wrote:
Obrimos wrote:You don't seem to love this place, in fact, your post that I quoted instead shows that you love snark and to bitch about what other people see as potential problems.


Listen man I don't want to get into a flame post with you. I in no way was being snarky, if you dont think that in the past 3 months there has been an unprecedented amount of moderation due to qq then I dont know what to tell you. I'm not complaining about those voicing concerns intelligently but the "they always do this to us" does nothing for anyone.


It doesn't, but whining even louder about them, and especailly Knaughty's downright chaotic flame-fest about people who are worried is not only uncalled for, it's flat-out unethical.

Frankly, were I moderating Knaughty would be banned already. He's done nothing but be a harbringer of pain and anguish to the people who are worried about Blizzard forgetting about us or nerfing us without buffing in other ways. It makes even less sense to attack these people than to just refute their worries, pat 'em on the back, and say "Keep an eye on the numbers."

Again, your posts, and moreso Knaughty's, are the fuel that feeds the flame-fest. It's not the worriers, it's the hate-fueled attack against them.
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Postby Fizzgig » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:56 am

Obrimos wrote:Again, your posts, and moreso Knaughty's, are the fuel that feeds the flame-fest. It's not the worriers, it's the hate-fueled attack against them.


Chicken or the egg man. Everyone needs to chill out.
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Postby Obrimos » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:06 am

Fizzgig wrote:
Obrimos wrote:Again, your posts, and moreso Knaughty's, are the fuel that feeds the flame-fest. It's not the worriers, it's the hate-fueled attack against them.


Chicken or the egg man. Everyone needs to chill out.


Then stop attacking people.

In order for the worriers to chill out, they need to see level-headed posts saying, "Yes, it's an issue, but the math is already in their hands and GC has stated that they're ready to buff where they have to."

That's it. That should be the extent of the communication.

Not the "YOU'RE ALL FUCKING IDIOTS. I can't believe it. Quit WoW, log off the internet, burn your PC, and never return" shit I've been seeing.

Again, were I a mod, that shit would be an instant IP ban.
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