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How hard did the Nerf hit our TPS?

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Postby Faeth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:27 am

Katamai wrote:
Faeth wrote:i'm speaking about my current personal experiences on end-game raiding content on Live. Unfortunately i can't say anything about Beta. If you feel our level 70 state is irrelevant, do ignore my posts. However, there are people posting all kinds of stuff i can't relate to in our CURRENT situation at level 70. This is what i respond to.


Honestly, with the state of end game raiding right now, i wouldn't even dare base my claims on what's going on at 70.

When you can clear SWP in less than 2 hrs, things are waaaay off scale.

But it's off-scale for everyone. By that logic we can just all STFU and only let the beta testers talk. When someone makes a statement saying that our threat even at level 70 (for instance) is low, then i reserve the right to say the opposite from personal experience. I can only assume that this person uses the same nerfed content to base said conclusions on.

Currently, there's nothing else for me to work with as this content...Which really is adequate for the general picture. The Twins encounter is still a decent encounter to compare max threat generation on for example....By lack of anything better.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:29 am

Katamai wrote:Check Fiorina's parses for threat.

A sample size of one, with no accounting for context.

Thats a ridiculous basis for such statements. You want our class balanced around that? Honestly?
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Postby Katamai » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:19 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Katamai wrote:Check Fiorina's parses for threat.

A sample size of one, with no accounting for context.

Thats a ridiculous basis for such statements. You want our class balanced around that? Honestly?


Ok, then just ignore what Fiorina, Fridmar, Worldie and a bunch of other Beta players are saying. We're all peachy, we're top of the hill in threat, DPS, mitigation, utility and all. Have you read Worldie's recent posts? Does he seem like a "OMG SKY IS FALLING AND I'M PULLING ARGUMENTS OUT OF MY ASS!!!" type of guy?

I would gladly provide you with parses if i had a beta account, which unfortunately, i don't. All i can do is base my claims on what others have experienced, and while i do respect the effort you've put into your maths, it's just "Dead letters on paper". In game it's different.

We had the same discussion for mitigation (not you and me, i mean that in general) where people were saying our mitigation was fine (or not) and both sides had (seemingly) valid arguments. Even GC said we were "fine" and didn't need any mitigation buffs. Guess what? We got 3% more dmg mitigation which i doubt would be the case if were really were fine. So it seems to me those with maths+live experience won over pure theorycrafters!

All i know is that i have close to best gear available on Live now and with as-perfect-as-possible rotation, my DPS and TPS are not even close to equal to those of warriors and druids. Key word here being "equal". I don't want to be "meh, close enough" type of guy forever.

I hope ShoR will fix that but somehow, with the latest round of class-wide nerfs, i doubt it. Still, i'd want nothing more than to be proven wrong.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:41 am

Katamai wrote:Ok, then just ignore what Fiorina, Fridmar, Worldie and a bunch of other Beta players are saying. We're all peachy, we're top of the hill in threat, DPS, mitigation, utility and all. Have you read Worldie's recent posts? Does he seem like a "OMG SKY IS FALLING AND I'M PULLING ARGUMENTS OUT OF MY ASS!!!" type of guy?

I'm not ignoring it, and I wouldn't use pure theory as a basis either, but I've yet to see any contextual analysis, or even more than purely anecdotal comparison with anything other than warriors.

I don't think we have enough information to make blanket statements about relative positions. Up or down. Highlighting potential issues is one thing. "Our threat is cack we demand buffs" is quite another.

Katamai wrote:"Dead letters on paper". In game it's different.

While I do agree it shouldn't be a singlular source of, or even a particularly strong one of evidence, because we simply don't have all the elements, we're playing a game entirely composed of dead letters on paper. 2+2 = 2+2.

Katamai wrote:I hope ShoR will fix that but somehow, with the latest round of class-wide nerfs, i doubt it. Still, i'd want nothing more than to be proven wrong.

It'll be our primary source of threat. Ask the warriors you're struggling against to try not using shield slam.
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Postby Katamai » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:47 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:I'm not ignoring it, and I wouldn't use pure theory as a basis either, but I've yet to see any contextual analysis, or even more than purely anecdotal comparison with anything other than warriors.

I don't think we have enough information to make blanket statements about relative positions. Up or down. Highlighting potential issues is one thing. "Our threat is cack" is quite another.

Never said our threat is "cack". I did say our threat is crap compared to other tanks and i stand by that claim. Also our DPS is absolute worst of all tanking classes which is somewhat expected to compensate for high threat modifiers.

Personally i don't like what i'm seeing right now.

While I do agree it shouldn't be a singlular source of evidence, because we simply don't have all the elements, we're playing a game entirely composed of dead letters on paper. 2+2 = 2+2.


Well that's part of the problem. It seems to me Blizzard is perfectly fine with nerfing the whole class based on numbers/speculations/predictions yet when presented with numbers to counter one of their claims (mitigation/threat/dps/whatever) they pull the "game is not just about numbers" argument.

Numbers are fine and dandy, spreadsheets are great and i applaud people who put effort into making them, but when i see a spreadsheet saying we're Ossom™ on one side, and seeing some of the most prominent paladins saying things are downspiraling on the other, i tend to trust the people.

It'll be our primary source of threat. Ask the warriors you're struggling against to try not using shield slam.

ShoR is (supposedly) great but people reporting not-so-great threat/DPS results are in Naxx and already have it. Still, i hope they are wrong. It just seems wrong having to wait 75 lvls for what is supposed to be our "core" threat ability.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:51 am

Katamai wrote:Personally i don't like what i'm seeing right now.

I'll look to like, if looking liking move.

edit: Sorry, thats flippant.

The issue is that a week ago we were a single target taunt away from being happy. We get maybe a 4% drop in threat and suddenly we're back to being awful at everything. What we've got right now is a front page full of people being unhelpful and analysis has taken a back step to blanket statement venting.
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Postby Katamai » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:02 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:I'll look to like, if looking liking move.

edit: Sorry, thats flippant.

The issue is that a week ago we were a single target taunt away from being happy. We get maybe a 4% drop in threat and suddenly we're back to being awful at everything. What we've got right now is a front page full of people being unhelpful and analysis has taken a back step to blanket statement venting.


I don't think anyone is saying we're worst at everything (or at least they shouldn't be). Our DPS was a concern for a while now and single target taunt is still a valid complaint.

But i think more people are upset about the blatant disregard with how Blizzard is treating the whole class vs one spec and their "meh if you suck we guess we could fix it" attitude. We were not in a position where losing 4% TPS would be negligible and now it has turned from a non-issue to a concerning prospect.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:28 am

Katamai wrote:Our DPS was a concern for a while now and single target taunt is still a valid complaint.

Personally I think we bring enough random and oblique elements to justify the dps difference. I provided 10% of the healing on an archi kill yesterday while clubbing away in melee. Dps in isolation is only a concern when things become hugely tightly tuned to it, which has been few and far between. I'd say being less that optimal occasionally is a valid price providing we become optimal occasionally ourselves.

Not saying thats definitely the case, but I'm highlighting the danger at viewing things in isolation.

Katamai wrote:But i think more people are upset about the blatant disregard with how Blizzard is treating the whole class vs one spec and their "meh if you suck we guess we could fix it" attitude. We were not in a position where losing 4% TPS would be negligible and now it has turned from a non-issue to a concerning prospect.

Assuming for a moment our threat is behind warriors (which I maintain is contextual), this is still behind at something we're told is a non issue. Beyond, what I'll nicely call friendly competition, 4% of something we have more than enough of isn't coming across as a deal breaker.

Personally I think the operative there is upset.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hugely competative and will want to "beat" other tanks on threat, but I can think of bigger issues than asking the offtanking to watch omen until our severe scaling kicks in.
Last edited by ziggyunderslashone on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Macha » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:30 am

uddenly we're back to being awful at everything.


Huh? We always were, that never changed. The only single advantage we have is being easier to heal against easy bosses. Against bosses where tank death is actually a concern, we're harder to heal.

We just are generally close enough so people stopped caring that we are generally worse. Random class butchering widening gaps where we were already worse is thus no cause for celebration.

I provided 10% of the healing on an archi kill yesterday while clubbing away in melee


Nerfed next patch.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:38 am

Macha wrote:Huh? We always were, that never changed. The only single advantage we have is being easier to heal against easy bosses. Against bosses where tank death is actually a concern, we're harder to heal.

At best conjecture, at worst openly false. You're comparing 2 classes rather than 4 and ignoring sizable amounts of encounter specific information.

This is my issue here. If you were a developer, would you be even reading this board today?

We're currently the statistical equivalent of Bloke-Down-The-Pub.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:40 am

Macha wrote:
I provided 10% of the healing on an archi kill yesterday while clubbing away in melee


Nerfed next patch.

How much dps is 5% of the raids healing worth? Again, isolated fact is isolated.
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Postby Elexis » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:00 am

Anyone else noticed we got alot more strength on our gear than warriors do on lvl 70? At 80 we got roughly the same which could be why people don't see much difference in threat between the two classes. While we have gained shield of the righteous we have lost our substantial strength lead.
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Postby daemonym » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:33 am

honestly i'm not too concearned with my threat being reduced some. i think of holding threat as winning a race. it doesn't matter if you win a race my 5 laps past second palce or on a photo finish. it also doesn't matter if you have OVER 9000!!! tps above your top dps or 20 tps. winning is winning and top threat is top threat no matter how much of a margin it may be by.

currently with all the pugs i've gone with and raids i've done and the friends i play with i don't lose threat, and i'm never just barely above them either. with an exception of like 3-4 few mages/locks that are retardedly better geared than i am, i'm usually double their threat for the duration and i only use JoW. even if this nerf is as dramatic as people insist it is, i honestly beleive that once we get holy shield slap everything will balance out just fine.

remember, special circumstances aside, its the DPS/healers we have to out threat, not other tanks...

and no i do not believe one tank will be taken over us because they have more tps even though we can show that we easily hold threat over the rest of the raid with no issues.
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Postby Zibey » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:08 am

and no i do not believe one tank will be taken over us because they have more tps even though we can show that we easily hold threat over the rest of the raid with no issues.

And what if this tank is also harder to kill, and has better tools to tank than you? Sorry, maybe you have secured raidspot... but not everyone has.
I am not whining, but noumbers provided by others say we are behind (or we are ahead - im lvling warrior and being full of optimism about him), so is there any reason Id play prot paladin who has several limiatations compared to warrior, while no assets?
I am too much of a nerd, and too competetive person to settle for "almost as good".
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Postby daemonym » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:27 am

Zibey wrote:
and no i do not believe one tank will be taken over us because they have more tps even though we can show that we easily hold threat over the rest of the raid with no issues.

And what if this tank is also harder to kill, and has better tools to tank than you? Sorry, maybe you have secured raidspot... but not everyone has.
I am not whining, but noumbers provided by others say we are behind (or we are ahead - im lvling warrior and being full of optimism about him), so is there any reason Id play prot paladin who has several limiatations compared to warrior, while no assets?
I am too much of a nerd, and too competetive person to settle for "almost as good".


no i do not have a secured raid spot to MT. i usually tank adds because i'm good at it and better at it player wise than most other tanks in the guild. ie, i dont drop consecrate on top of sheeps, i can pick up 2 large packs of mobs coming from diferent directions easily etc.

better tools? really our tools aren't better or worse, just different. and used properly ours might be a small bit better.

but i've always been a bottom line sort of guy. if you can get the job done as intended, i don't care if you have to work harder or whatever, you get a cookie. if you frell up, you get openly mocked in front of 24 other people on vent. and i don't want to be 'almost as good' as you put it either. but if i can do it and another can do it then its a /roll or popularity contest as to who tanks what.

as to getting the chance to show that you can get the job done, thats between the player and the guild more so than the fabled 1-2%
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