How hard did the Nerf hit our TPS?

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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:55 am

Sheherezade wrote:
We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

so I find it believable that they will be fixing our threat if it's too low compared to the other classes.


Well, that still won't fix the other issues.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:16 am

Belarkan wrote:Well, that still won't fix the other issues.

Such as?

I don't mean to sound mindlessly optomistic, I'm as upset as the next guy, but I'm upset that they drew some of the fun out of ret rather than the dps potential (which I've always thought was too low at 80, lord knows where they get their numbers), and that we've been hurt as a consequence.

Last week it was "We're basically good, we need a single target taunt".

All I've read this morning is that a change to threat, that we've been told they'll likely respond to for prot has suddenly made us third rate at everything.

Seriously, if there are problems we should highlight them. All I've read this morning are vague or anecdotal outbursts that theres something not right generally. How does that help?

I can tell you I've been out-threating warriors by mashing buttons randomly, but which warriors? How good where they? How were they geared? And most crucially of all, were they level 80 and in level 80 gear? We all knew 3.0 wouldn't be balanced, we all said it wouldn't be balanced, but now it isn't we've become upset?

Personally I think this is highly detrimental. No wonder they don't listen when we make reasonable requests, we make several billion unreasonable ones alongside.
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Postby Faeth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:22 am

I'm in SWP with both a warrior and druid and i really can't say my TPS beats them by far. I do seem to generate more TPS over time, but not excessive...which is good.

While JoL and SoV will get nerfed, we're also still awaiting:

- 10% armor increase on bosses (favoring our TPS as opposed to the others)
- JoL working on casters as well (currently for melee only)
- HotR doing 4x weapon DPS instead of 3x.

Unless i'm mistaken, i don't see any huge nerf to our TPS so far. I'm just concerned with how our solo grinding will hold up with the nerf to JoW / SoW / JoL / SoL.
Last edited by Faeth on Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Enkal » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:22 am

I think many ppl judge us (pun not intended) by the threat output from JoL atm. Once JoL get fixed it will be a completely different ballpark imho.

I think HotR already does x4 damage no?
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:32 am

Faeth wrote:- HotR doing 4x weapon DPS instead of 3x.


It already does.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:33 am

Faeth wrote:While JoL and SoV will get nerfed, we're also still awaiting:

- 10% armor increase on bosses (favoring our TPS as opposed to the others)
- JoL working on casters as well (currently for melee only)
- HotR doing 4x weapon DPS instead of 3x.

- Shield of Righteouness
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Postby Faeth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:36 am

Belarkan wrote:
Faeth wrote:- HotR doing 4x weapon DPS instead of 3x.


It already does.

Hm...i didn't check this ingame, but MMO states the HotR change together with the 3% damage reduction on Shield of the Templar for patch 3.0.3
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Postby Andryana » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:40 am

Faeth wrote:
Belarkan wrote:
Faeth wrote:- HotR doing 4x weapon DPS instead of 3x.


It already does.

Hm...i didn't check this ingame, but MMO states the HotR change together with the 3% damage reduction on Shield of the Templar for patch 3.0.3


It already was on 3.0.2 but the tooltip just wasn't updated.
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Postby Katamai » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:48 am

Faeth wrote:I'm in SWP with both a warrior and druid and i really can't say my TPS beats them by far. I do seem to generate more TPS over time, but not excessive...which is good.

While JoL and SoV will get nerfed, we're also still awaiting:

- 10% armor increase on bosses (favoring our TPS as opposed to the others)
- JoL working on casters as well (currently for melee only)
- HotR doing 4x weapon DPS instead of 3x.

Unless i'm mistaken, i don't see any huge nerf to our TPS so far. I'm just concerned with how our solo grinding will hold up with the nerf to JoW / SoW / JoL / SoL.


HotR has been doing 4x for a while now. It's doing it on live too, just the tooltip needs updating.
JoL is working on casters now too.
10% armor increase on bosses won't hurt them as much as 15-20% seal/judgment nerfs will hurt us. And we're already the lowest of the tanking classes.

@ ziggyunderslashone - While i do try at least to share your optimism, i find it appalling that they are admitting they know this will hurt holy and prot (mostly), yet they're taking the "wait and see" approach. SoW/SoL/JoW/JoL nerfs will hit us bad when soloing and they stated that they want all specs to be viable for lvling in wrath.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:00 am

Katamai wrote:And we're already the lowest of the tanking classes.

Can I ask what that's based on?

See, we scale well. All those multipliers. And the thing about high scaling is that in order to be balanced at one point you need to start lower and end higher. The context in which we make such statements becomes crucial.
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Postby Faeth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:10 am

Katamai wrote:HotR has been doing 4x for a while now. It's doing it on live too, just the tooltip needs updating.

i stand corrected here then.
JoL is working on casters now too.

I can't seem to find any evidence of this on a WWS parse i have from a Brutallus fight done last wednesday (22-10). Therefore i don't think it has been implemented yet.
10% armor increase on bosses won't hurt them as much as 15-20% seal/judgment nerfs will hurt us. And we're already the lowest of the tanking classes.

Looking at TPS i can currently hold threat fine compared to our druid and warrior tank... Even without using JoL. I'll test this more thoroughly in the weeks to come.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:13 am

Faeth wrote:
10% armor increase on bosses won't hurt them as much as 15-20% seal/judgment nerfs will hurt us. And we're already the lowest of the tanking classes.

Looking at TPS i can currently hold threat fine compared to our druid and warrior tank... Even without using JoL. I'll test this more thoroughly in the weeks to come.


You're speaking about live or beta ?
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Postby Katamai » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:14 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Can I ask what that's based on?

See, we scale well. All those multipliers. And the thing about high scaling is that in order to be balanced at one point you need to start lower and end higher. The context in which we make such statements becomes crucial.


Check Fiorina's parses for threat. As for lowest DPS class, there's simple logic that doesn't require any numbers. Our threat modifiers are higher than what other 3 classes get, thus we do least dmg. Simple. With 15-20% less dmg from seals, we will do even less DPS and less TPS.

EDIT:

@ Faeth - I know this is being said often but... you need to get better druids/warriors. With the perfect rotation i am barely close to warriors/druids. Yes we have threat scaling but right now, we're not equal simply due to that scaling. Things may and should change later on, but i don't want to wait for Icecrown lvl raids to be able to catch up or in some cases outTPS warriors/druids.
Last edited by Katamai on Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Faeth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:17 am

Belarkan wrote:
Faeth wrote:
10% armor increase on bosses won't hurt them as much as 15-20% seal/judgment nerfs will hurt us. And we're already the lowest of the tanking classes.

Looking at TPS i can currently hold threat fine compared to our druid and warrior tank... Even without using JoL. I'll test this more thoroughly in the weeks to come.


You're speaking about live or beta ?

i'm speaking about my current personal experiences on end-game raiding content on Live. Unfortunately i can't say anything about Beta. If you feel our level 70 state is irrelevant, do ignore my posts. However, there are people posting all kinds of stuff i can't relate to in our CURRENT situation at level 70. This is what i respond to.
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Postby Katamai » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:20 am

Faeth wrote:i'm speaking about my current personal experiences on end-game raiding content on Live. Unfortunately i can't say anything about Beta. If you feel our level 70 state is irrelevant, do ignore my posts. However, there are people posting all kinds of stuff i can't relate to in our CURRENT situation at level 70. This is what i respond to.


Honestly, with the state of end game raiding right now, i wouldn't even dare base my claims on what's going on at 70.

When you can clear SWP in less than 2 hrs, things are waaaay off scale.
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