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GC damage control post #2

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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:37 am

ScribeShanky wrote:Knaughty: your general optimism


This is indeed true, Knaughty's General optimism is evident & nothing wrong with that.

The rest is opinion, let's not get crazy.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:38 am

DOOM & GLOOM & STUFF!


<sigh>


Are we trying to make a point in this thread? I sincerely can't see it.
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Postby Faeth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:59 am

Snake-Aes wrote:DOOM & GLOOM & STUFF!


<sigh>


Are we trying to make a point in this thread? I sincerely can't see it.

Analyzing GC's post. interpreting it. Venting. theorycrafting. QQ-ing. Threads like these i guess are to keep the rest of the forum clean.
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Postby Andryana » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:02 am

On the same thread he posted further ahead:

Random forum poster:
You said our PvE DPS was fine and squared away.

I thought it was. I never said "Expect no more changes to Ret." And even if I had, wouldn't that be a pretty ridiculous thing for me to say? What you're actually telling me, whether you are intending to or not, is never, ever say anything or it will be held against me down the road. This is why politicians end up talking so weasely, and I don't think any of us really want that.

I know everyone has antecdotal data, but I saw a Hyjal parse today in which the Ret paladin was #3 on dps AND #4 on healing. In Hyjal. Where mages, druids, locks and hunters are just AE'ing everything down. If that was the only anomaly I had seen, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But of course that has become the trend, not the outlier.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... No=63#1244
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Postby Io.Draco » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:02 am

Sigh....just leave it be Knaughty you won't break common sense in this bunch

Seriously WTB back the comunity this site had when it had started just for a fee mnths... :S
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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:19 am

Io.Draco wrote:Sigh....just leave it be Knaughty you won't break common sense in this bunch

Seriously WTB back the comunity this site had when it had started just for a fee mnths... :S


Ahh yes the good old days..... Back then we didn't hark back to the good old days...

People are just venting... this thread will be forgotten in a few days, it's no big deal.
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Postby Enkal » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:19 am

I dont doubt they will fix any issues with DPS/TPS that prot will have in the future. Ret needed a nerf.

My main problem is that we will have to live with this change until then. :(
Imho that's what many tankadins have a problem with.
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Postby sherck » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:43 am

Knaughty wrote:But DPS is not the primary focus of Holy or Prot. Healing is the focus of Holy. Mitigation is the focus of Prot.


And see, I think it is this attitude that is killing the Paladin class.

Your prespective is ONLY from a raiding viewpoint. There are other parts of the game besides raiding.

You have basically conceeded that if you want to go kill stuff at any pace other than god-awful slow, you need to go re-spec Ret if you are Holy and Prot.

"Holy does not need DPS, they heal..."
"Prot does not need DPS, just TPS..."
"If you need to kill something, respec..."

Sorry, but I like being Holy. All my gear is based on Spell Power. I do not own a single piece of gear anywhere that has Strength on it. Not one.

Blizz promised us that all specs would be viable to solo/quest. I don't want to respec Ret just to go quest. I like playing Holy as the "spell casting" Paladin.

This nerf hurts. A lot. In WoW 2.x with virutally the same gear I have now, my Seal of Righteousness was doing around 210 per hit with a 1.8 sec weapon. In WoW 3.0, it is doing only around 130 per hit (and that is with the Badge Libram that increases the Spell Power of Righteousness which I just got. Without that, it would be worse) and under the new WoW 3.0.3 patch, it will be down to around 104 damage per hit.

A 50% reduction. It has gone from accounting for almost 37% of my combat damage over time to where my calculations show it will be down to just under 13% of my combat damage.

One large part of that reduction is the massive buff to Holy Shock which is used MUCH more for damage dealing. Another part is that I am using Ret Aura now instead of Devotion as my "combat' aura and it is accounting for a percentage of my damage output that was not there before. But my seal damage should be around 18-20% of my total damage output even considering the Shock damage, and it is only 60% of that.

If I don't get something to compensate, I can tell you that it will not be worth it anymore to use Righteousness. I will probably Seal Wisdom and Judge Wisdom, and just kill mobs with Shock, Consecrate, a pitiful amount of white damage and HoW once they get down to 20%.

Back to SLOW, SLOW, SLOW grinding. Sigh....I don't want to spec Ret in order to kill something but I fear that Blizzard is going to force me to so in order to have any solo/questing viability.

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:47 am

sherck wrote:Blizz promised us that all specs would be viable to solo/quest. I don't want to respec Ret just to go quest. I like playing Holy as the "spell casting" Paladin.

To be honest, I don't see a lot of holy priests or resto druids and shamans asking for dps buffs. What I do see is trying to balance the three specs causing each of them a set of issues.

Doesn't dual spec completely solve the issue of having poor dps as holy?
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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:51 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Doesn't dual spec completely solve the issue of having poor dps as holy?


Indeed this will be interesting....
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Postby Levantine » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:57 am

To be completely fair, the other three classes have DPS specs that use the same type of gear that their healing roles use. Holy Paladins don't have this spec synergy.
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Postby Andryana » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:58 am

Dual-spec won't be out right away though, it will only be available on 3.1 iirc which can take a while.

And the other classes can farm/solo decently with a healing spec.. only holy is totally terrible for it now.
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Postby sherck » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:02 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
sherck wrote:Blizz promised us that all specs would be viable to solo/quest. I don't want to respec Ret just to go quest. I like playing Holy as the "spell casting" Paladin.

To be honest, I don't see a lot of holy priests or resto druids and shamans asking for dps buffs. What I do see is trying to balance the three specs causing each of them a set of issues.

Doesn't dual spec completely solve the issue of having poor dps as holy?


Sure, if you WANT to respec in order to DPS. I don't. I have played this toon Holy from level 10 (with a brief 2 hour flirtation with Ret after getting a blue 2H axe drop out of SFK) and want to continue to play him Holy.

And, respeccing Ret is great if you want to build 2 completely different sets of gear in order to be viable.

None of the other "healing" classes have to do this.

Healing cloth is the same as spell damage cloth for Priests...
Same with healing leather and Balance leather...
Same with Healing mail and Elemental mail...

All those T4/T5/T6 epicced out healers will be able to dual-spec to their spell casting DPS spec and roll.

I have not collected a SINGLE piece of plate with Strength on it. I did not think to save quest rewards when I was leveling and I don't roll on those pieces in raids because we are always bringing along a new tank to get geared who needs plate to our Kara/ZA runs.

Sure, I could start grinding out Heroics to get drops/badge gear, gathering mats for crafted items and start trolling the AH for "...of the Bear" level 70 gear in anticipation of having to dual-spec.

But I don't want to. I want to be a spell casting Paladin....not a Warrior with a heal spell.

Anyway, I suspect that your logic is exactly what Blizzard has in mind and that my Holy DPS capability will be nerffed to the ground and I will have to respec in order to grind/quest. As long as Healadins can heal, screw any other aspect of their game.

Sigh....
Last edited by sherck on Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bobness » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:10 am

sherck wrote:
ziggyunderslashone wrote:
sherck wrote:Blizz promised us that all specs would be viable to solo/quest. I don't want to respec Ret just to go quest. I like playing Holy as the "spell casting" Paladin.

To be honest, I don't see a lot of holy priests or resto druids and shamans asking for dps buffs. What I do see is trying to balance the three specs causing each of them a set of issues.

Doesn't dual spec completely solve the issue of having poor dps as holy?


Sure, if you WANT to respec in order to DPS. I don't. I have played this toon Holy from level 10 and want to continue to play him Holy.

And, respeccing Ret is great if you want to build 2 completely different sets of gear in order to be viable.

None of the other "healing" classes have to do this.

Healing cloth is the same as spell damage cloth for Priests...
Same with healing leather and Balance leather...
Same with Healing mail and Elemental mail...

All those T4/T5/T6 epicced out healers will be able to dual-spec to their spell casting DPS spec and roll.

I have not collected a SINGLE piece of plate with Strength on it. I did not think to save quest rewards when I was leveling and I don't roll on those pieces in raids because we are always bringing along a new tank to get geared who needs plate to our Kara/ZA runs.

Sure, I could start grinding out Heroics to get drops/badge gear, gathering mats for crafted items and start trolling the AH for "...of the Bear" level 70 gear in anticipation of having to dual-spec.

But I don't want to. I want to be a spell casting Paladin....not a Warrior with a heal spell.

Anyway, I suspect that your logic is exactly what Blizzard has in mind and that my Holy DPS capability will be nerffed to the ground and I will have to respec in order to grind/quest. As long as Healadins can heal, screw any other aspect of their game.

Sigh....


Yes the puzzler is that a week or so ago GC said that Holy "DPS" was on the low side & they were looking into it with a view to "fixing" it then they nerf all Seals & Judgements... strange that they didn't consider this would have such a negative impact..
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:11 am

sherck wrote:Sure, if you WANT to respec in order to DPS. I don't. I have played this toon Holy from level 10 and want to continue to play him Holy.

That's really not applicable logic. You're right about the gear point (hit aside, so we're not talking about fully interchangable), but this is just flawed.

It's not a dps spec, any dps you spec for will hurt your healing output. Thats what talents are, to define your role. If you increase baseline damage, you negate the effect of dps talents within ret.

I'm not seeing how your resistance to other playstyles and a sort of internal roleplaying desire shoudl effect class wide balance.
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