GC damage control post #2

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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:46 pm

Levantine wrote:
baghead wrote:
Levantine wrote:I fixed it for you.

Even one prot pally is a liability on this fight. So it's not quite 'fixed'.


How do you come to that conclusion?

Ooooh! Oooh! I know!

Baghead is a whiney QQer?!

At 4-h, you actually have to yannow, communicate that the pally taunts first.

SUPER COMPLICATED!

Thus: Paladins are a liability, because: SUPER COMPLICATED!

Ima going to delete my subscription, erase my HDD, set my laptop on fire and kick the dog.

Because pallies having to communicate "you taunt second" to the other tank is a SLAP TO THE FACE!
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:52 pm

lol knaughty! Nope, I'm a realist. It's great to see some of the senior pallys on the forums seeing the extant issues for what they are (eg. worldie).

If you can manage to reconcile in your own head that bringing a prot pally to a raid provides some benefit then more power to you. But as you put it - YOU'RE WRONG.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:59 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Levantine wrote:
baghead wrote:
Levantine wrote:I fixed it for you.

Even one prot pally is a liability on this fight. So it's not quite 'fixed'.


How do you come to that conclusion?

Ooooh! Oooh! I know!

Baghead is a whiney QQer?!

At 4-h, you actually have to yannow, communicate that the pally taunts first.

SUPER COMPLICATED!

Thus: Paladins are a liability, because: SUPER COMPLICATED!

Ima going to delete my subscription, erase my HDD, set my laptop on fire and kick the dog.

Because pallies having to communicate "you taunt second" to the other tank is a SLAP TO THE FACE!


Uh

What does taunting first or second have to do with 4 Horsemen?
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:00 pm

we have a three taunt. others have a single.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:02 pm

Ilara wrote:we have a three taunt. others have a single.


Yes.

I am wondering what taunting first or second does about this.
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Postby Drathian » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:03 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Ilara wrote:we have a three taunt. others have a single.


Yes.

I am wondering what taunting first or second does about this.


You taunt the warrior's target. Now you have two.

Warrior taunts off of you, now you both have 1 target.

This would not work in reverse.

Warrior taunts off of you, he has two mobs.

You taunt off of him...you have two mobs...oh wait...
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:05 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Ilara wrote:we have a three taunt. others have a single.


Yes.

I am wondering what taunting first or second does about this.


Simple. Pally goes first, grabs both, single taunter(warrior/DK/druid) grabs his away as soon as it looks at the pally. Split achieved.

Doesn't work so well if pally goes second. Warrior taunts his, pally taunts, grab's warrior's back away from him. Whoops!
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:05 pm

I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:07 pm

Let's not forget that a 10% to armor is not the same as a 10% reduction.

Armor grows at an exponential scale so that going from 0 => 10,000 armor is a lot more percentage-wise than going from 10,000 => 20,000 armor.

Will it have an effect? Of course. Realistically though it's not enough to justify the nerfs Prot was hit for.
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Postby amadiss » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:08 pm

4. Isn't the 4 Horsmen a fight where 2 paladin MT have trouble? or am I
outdated?


yes it ... does it matter THAT much?[/quote]


One fight doesn't matter, however it does contradict what GC stated just today.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:14 pm

Levantine wrote:I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:28 pm

crabcrouton wrote:Let's not forget that a 10% to armor is not the same as a 10% reduction.

Armor grows at an exponential scale so that going from 0 => 10,000 armor is a lot more percentage-wise than going from 10,000 => 20,000 armor.

Will it have an effect? Of course. Realistically though it's not enough to justify the nerfs Prot was hit for.

If you were to apply that to live level 70 bosses, I think the average boss has around what 7k armor? A 10% armor increase would pop that up to 7.7k armor.

Doing the math against a lvl 70 attacker:
* @7K , 1000 dmg is mitigated to 601DMG
* @7.7K 1000 dmg is mitigated to 578 DMG
(ie. a 23 flat dmg drop or 3.8% flat decrease)

However, if you consider a fully debuffed mob with 5 stacks of sunder the boss would be at (7000-2600=4400):
* @4.4K, 1000 dmg is mitigated to 705.8
* @5.1K, 1000 dmg is mitigated to 674.3
(ie. a 31.5 flat dmg drop or 4.4% dmg reduction)

However, since a reasonable portion of prot war tps is fixed values the actual TPS reduction is less than 4.4%. How much less? I'm not sure but I'd be guessing around about a 3-3.5% reduction at most.
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:28 pm

And others need to learn to properly face each challange with what they have available to them to succeed.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:29 pm

baghead wrote:lol knaughty! Nope, I'm a realist. It's great to see some of the senior pallys on the forums seeing the extant issues for what they are (eg. worldie).

If you can manage to reconcile in your own head that bringing a prot pally to a raid provides some benefit then more power to you. But as you put it - YOU'RE WRONG.


You, sir, win a fabulous NO PRIZE for having a sense of humour!

Tankadins have the following current issues (at 80)
• One taunt
• Low DPS (partly because RF is too big a threat multiplier, should be 60%, not 90%).
• Lower TPS than other tanks (but still higher than DPS).

Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

"Taunt" is on GC's "watch list" and will be fixed if the devs think that we RILLY RILLY need one. 4-H isn't enough, as the only game-breaking case is:

Q: I run my 10-man with two tankadins and six DPS none of whom have a taunt! How do I do 4-h?
A: Spec out of stupid IRL. Balancing a raid is much easier than before, but not completely gone from consideration.

If Tier-8 needs a single-target taunt, then either we get one, or they tweak RF mechanics to single-taunt if you target BadGuy and multi-taunt if you target GoddGuy.

The other two issues are acknowledged as needing fixes.

Too lazy to look up the references, but GC has said our DPS/TPS will be buffed to be competitive with other tanks, and raised it again in the same post that said "Ret nerfed into the ground for being OP".

Holy needs a massive DPS boost, which is also ack'd by GC.

They'd got till the end of November to fix prot.

Did I miss any major issue?

Oh, and what do we bring? Equiv tank to warrior, a couple of "unique snowflake" buffs and no real tanking weaknesses.

I'll tank expansion because I'm our guild's most reliable tank (not best, but I show up). Oh, and I'm like, super anal about PPPPP.
Last edited by knaughty on Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Drathian » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:29 pm

baghead wrote:
Levantine wrote:I still don't see how bringing a Paladin to 4HM is a disadvantage. That's a pretty shitty example, bag.

You guys need to read up the definitions of 'liability' and 'disadvantage'.

Anything that restricts or changes the normal operation of a fight is a limitation. There are workarounds to everything, but this doesn't mean it's a good thing.

People need to stop making class limitations sound like a good thing.


Hate to break it to you, but it's hardly a limitation.

I "progression" tanked 4 hoursemen on Beta, with another Protection Paladin, in a raid that was, if anything, undergeared.

I've also done it with a warrior. It isn't something that makes or breaks the encounter.

All I hear around here is QQ this and QQ that, and doom and gloom, and reroll, and deactivate account.

Have fun. I'll be progression tanking on my tankadin in WotLK, no matter what anyone says, does, nerfs, or buffs.
Last edited by Drathian on Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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