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GC damage control post #2

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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:07 pm

Yeah, there's tons of mana flyng about in a group environment. With my elemental shaman in a 10-man, never ran out, and with my holy priest in a 5-man, no issues either. Either one solo can have mana issues, depending on what's going on.

Solo vs raid mana is not the same thing at all, for any class, paladins included. Of course, when a poster is absolutely determined to find something wrong to show that they're nerfed beyond repair, they'll find it.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:09 pm

Assuming standard rotation in a PvE raid with consecration and instant FoLs / Shields, mana before was enough to keep them all up. I had enough mana to do all of those abilities and perform at max, but if GC says that same system kept Ret from killing people and moving on at 100%, then I've got nothing to say to that.

So, I tried out the new Ret yesterday before the servers went kaput.

Solo, mana is an issue very quickly and this is without Consecration. At about the 35 second mark between Divine Pleas, I'm at a net loss. Stopping to drink is inevitable.

In a 5 man group, I can keep up a rotation but I'll need to drink about half as often as the mana casters, a far cry from the Enhance shaman who is an Energizer bunny. I potted in a couple of the longer boss fights.

I didn't get to spend too long in a raid because the servers were starting to die and people were being d/c. I can still dps without cons in a raid and keep the mana loss to a minimum, spamming Divine Plea whenever it's up of course. If you're worried about raid dps it's not the end of the world but it's really noticable in 5 mans and solo situations.

The BGs weren't cooperating so I couldn't test to see how this worked in PvP. Based on the solo results, I'd say they met their goal of making a Retadin go oom after a fight in PvP when we're using our other situational abilities.
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Postby amadiss » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:17 pm

1. Two GC posts and still no comment about "We would like tanks to do more damage" . I guess explanations are needed at the very least.

2. Do i get it wrong or GC said that the priority is to make holy and prot good healers? Having the paladin as the only Healer/tank = Bad idea.

3. What does exactly mean to "be able" to tank anything a warrior can?
Does it mean that well be a "fair replacement" when they can't log or what? I just dont like the language GC is using, it doesn't convince me.

4. Isn't the 4 Horsmen a fight where 2 paladin MT have trouble? or am I
outdated?
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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:18 pm

3. What does exactly mean to "be able" to tank anything a warrior can?
Does it mean that well be a "fair replacement" when they can't log or what? I just dont like the language GC is using, it doesn't convince me.


It means a paladin will be able to tank a boss as good as a warrior , people can go ahead and argue about that now....but I trust GC will not destroy prot

4. Isn't the 4 Horsmen a fight where 2 paladin MT have trouble? or am I
outdated?


yes it ... does it matter THAT much?
Last edited by Io.Draco on Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:18 pm

Usually i would say i dont care about Ret Nerfs because quite frankly i dont play retribution. Dual specs are going to change a lot of things, switching specs for farming purposes. Rets Manareg on live right now is quite insane, i never stop between pulls, im always on full mana, and in BGs its one guy after the other.

That was very overpowered when you compare it to the mages situation.
BUT from what ive read here right now it seems that they have nerfed it way to hard. The drinking in 5 mans is.. interesting and that with leaving consc out of your rotation. Basically theyve nerfed it to hard.
Where exactly is blizzard pulling their "numbers" from? Do they have a dartboard with random numbers on them "Oh yay i threw a x lets put that as the mana reg coeffs." ?

Im also very dissapointed by how this nerf hits prot and holy dps viability.
I agree with Invis post in the forums but lets not forget theyre adding 10% armor to the bosses so maybe that will straighten a few things out although quite honestly i doubt it.

Correct me if im Wrong here. A warriors TPS is exclusively Melee based dmg. So if im doing 250 000 dmg, with 10% extra armor contribution would i only do 225 000 dmg? Does anybody know the exact mechanics of how scaling is working? Because that will be a hard nerf for melee based Tanks. And will be a buff to us.

Also theyve mentioned they will compensate us for the loss of seal/Judge damage. Well see how that plays out.

Its the 26th of October 3 weeks to go before WOTLK and to be frank i already see blizzard spending 9/10 hotfixes for questbugs/areabugs/npc bugs. Rather than balancing issues.

And i see 10/10 nerfs to PVE be PVP related.

Blizzards wish to make wow a ESPN Esports title is ruining PVE. Sooner or later this will go horably wrong. Especially since devs are ... akward. As invisura put it nicely: If you wanted to nerf ret why dont you nerf ret based abilities? Why touch Judge/Seals which also affect Prot/Holy aspects...


Oh well... =/
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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:21 pm

They don't balance stuff around 5 mans.....
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Postby Vorps » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:23 pm

Karock wrote:I actually tried out the new JotW on my ret paladin for some leveling in beta, and using nothing but DS, CS and judgement (at every possible cooldown, prioritized) I was down a good chunk of mana every time I judged versus the last time I had judged. Using holy light is pretty much out of the question now and FoL from art of war makes it drop even faster.


This confirms my suspicion. With the collateral damage to Protection, it's flat out disheartening and unacceptable.

I was looking forward to Paladin finally (maybe) suiting all my needs. Which are being able to tank anything, melee DPS PvE, and successfully participate in high rated arena as Ret. Even with Ret the way it is on live atm, I am still skeptical about their arena play @80. I'm sick of Paladins always feeling not quite complete or flat out nonviable, apparently it's time to bite the bullet and just switch class.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:34 pm

Io.Draco wrote:They don't balance stuff around 5 mans.....


True but when was the last time they balanced stuff based on 25 mans?
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:41 pm

My baby warrior looks much more appealing than my baby paladin at the moment. ESPECIALLY since mostly I'll be doing solo/5man/10mans on him (Priest is my 25man main).
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:42 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
4. Isn't the 4 Horsmen a fight where 2 paladin MT have trouble? or am I
outdated?

yes it ... does it matter THAT much?

YES. Alarm bells should be ringing when with on top of every other problem with prot right now there are bosses in the very first 10 man raid dungeon that scream "DONT BRING PROT PALLYS".

People seem to forget that pallys were pretty much fail until 2.3. That's what ten?/eleven? months after BC was released. Do you really want to be waiting around for 3.3?

More importantly, regardless of how eloquently GC speaks, if you track his comments he regularly makes HUGE whoppers. It was only a few weeks ago (like 14 days) that he was stating that ret was fine. How the hell do you manage to rationalise that comment with the huge slab of nerfs they've thrown at ret pallys in the past 8-9 days.

You have to ask at some point: Are they asleep at the wheel?
Last edited by baghead on Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:44 pm

baghead wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
4. Isn't the 4 Horsmen a fight where 2 paladin MT have trouble? or am I
outdated?

yes it ... does it matter THAT much?

YES. Alarm bells should be ringing when with on top of every other problem with prot right now there are bosses in the very first 10 man raid dungeon that scream "DONT BRING TWO PROT PALLYS".

People seem to forget that pallys were pretty much fail until 2.3. That's what ten?/eleven? months after BC was released. Do you really want to be waiting around for 3.3?


I fixed it for you.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:47 pm

Levantine wrote:I fixed it for you.

Even one prot pally is a liability on this fight. So it's not quite 'fixed'.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:49 pm

Well at least Benediction is useful for ret now.
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:17 pm

Levantine wrote:
baghead wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
4. Isn't the 4 Horsmen a fight where 2 paladin MT have trouble? or am I
outdated?

yes it ... does it matter THAT much?

YES. Alarm bells should be ringing when with on top of every other problem with prot right now there are bosses in the very first 10 man raid dungeon that scream "DONT BRING TWO PROT PALLYS".

People seem to forget that pallys were pretty much fail until 2.3. That's what ten?/eleven? months after BC was released. Do you really want to be waiting around for 3.3?


I fixed it for you.


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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:35 pm

baghead wrote:
Levantine wrote:I fixed it for you.

Even one prot pally is a liability on this fight. So it's not quite 'fixed'.


How do you come to that conclusion?

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