GC damage control post #2

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GC damage control post #2

Postby Dianora » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:57 pm

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Ghostcrawler wrote:I know many of you asked good questions before the posts hit their limit. I am not convinced that my answering many of these questions would calm anyone down, but I'll give it a shot. If not, when the paladin community has gotten it all out of their system, I'll still be here.

Also realize that there are probably a couple hundred questions at this point and I can't answer them all. Here are a few common themes:

I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.

You reviewed our class last because you don't care.
We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.

I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.

But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.

Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.

Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.

Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?
We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.

Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.

Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.

That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.
First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.

You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.

We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.
There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.

You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.
Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.

Our numbers are different from yours.
That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.

You said I wouldn't get banned.
You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.


Make what you will.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:15 pm

To be fair, a lobotomy IS, in fact, technically a surgical proceedure.
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:16 pm

Hmmm, the only thing that still really puzzles me is the JotW nerf. I suppose in a raid with Replenishment, Wisdom, Mana Spring and Judgement of Wisdom it might be alright, but I'm still skeptical.

What the hell is wrong with being like any other melee DPS in that mana is a non issue?
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Postby Vika » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:18 pm

Thanks, Dianora.

I'm really short on time tonight or I'd search for this myself: Does anyone know if any of the prot pallies have made it clear to GC that there's some concern about prot DPS independent of prot TPS as a result of the recent nerfs (and past data, from the impression I get from these forums)?

That's a bigger concern for me than the TPS nerf right now, and the /console GC tossed us in the initial mega-response gives me very little faith it's being given proper consideration. Just a concern.

Thanks again.
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Postby Invisusira » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:21 pm

Yes, I maed a poast hear:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 7511&sid=1

addressing concerns about Blizzard's supposed desires to have prot (and holy) be viable solo specs.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:21 pm

Note that with the exception of FR totem, Water totems are NOT raid-wide.
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:24 pm

Well then, the JotW nerf was DEFINITELY too much in my opinion. Ret Paladins will not be able to sustain their rotation for long.
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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:26 pm

Have people even tested that in a raid ?
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Postby Swagger » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:30 pm

Joanadark wrote:To be fair, a lobotomy IS, in fact, technically a surgical proceedure.
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Postby Vika » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:31 pm

Thanks, Invis.

One thing I'd really like to see made explicit: I'm a bit worried about our DPS-while-tanking, as opposed to our DPS-while-solo (a concern, too, for sure, but I'd be willing to table it for now). From what I'm seeing on the forums, we're already behind in that department, and this certainly doesn't help. If we're really looking at raids designed to test healers' mana pools; and assuming that we're right in understanding that Blizz intends TPS to be less of a concern across-the-board in LK; and our mitigation-over-time is roughly equivalent to that of the other tanks, a difference of, say, 400 DPS over the course of a boss fight becomes much more substantial than a similar reduction in TPS. Especially considering it's one of the few items that both has an actual effect on downing bosses and is easy to measure.
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:33 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Have people even tested that in a raid ?


Consecrate is part of Retribution's DPS rotation. GL keeping that up with the new JotW.
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Postby Dianora » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:34 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Have people even tested that in a raid ?


Don't know about anyone else. Beta authentication server have been dead all weekend.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:45 pm

I actually tried out the new JotW on my ret paladin for some leveling in beta, and using nothing but DS, CS and judgement (at every possible cooldown, prioritized) I was down a good chunk of mana every time I judged versus the last time I had judged. Using holy light is pretty much out of the question now and FoL from art of war makes it drop even faster.
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Postby Io.Draco » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:04 pm

Levantine wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:Have people even tested that in a raid ?


Consecrate is part of Retribution's DPS rotation. GL keeping that up with the new JotW.


Its very easy to make such a comment without any testing in a raid envoirment....


I actually tried out the new JotW on my ret paladin for some leveling in beta, and using nothing but DS, CS and judgement (at every possible cooldown, prioritized) I was down a good chunk of mana every time I judged versus the last time I had judged. Using holy light is pretty much out of the question now and FoL from art of war makes it drop even faster.


And whats so unsual about having mana problems while solo? Every single class there is in this game at every single spec can't keep their mana up solo , only expection would be for prot palas , but we do have our downsides aswell...
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:07 pm

Odd... I could swear my Elemental Shaman has zero downtime and zero mana drain with water shield and lightning bolt spam and the occasional heal no less...

Strangely the same for my affliction warlock...

And much better than ret paladin on my shadow priest (which is kinda sad)...

And while I'm not sure about enhancement shaman with wotlk they CERTAINLY could grind with no net mana loss whatsoever.

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