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GC's announcement as to our nerfs

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:40 pm

We've been running with one Paladin main tank (me) since the release of Sunwell, and never had any issue with it.
We got a second one now, because we lacked decent tanks, and the only decent one i knew happened to be another paladin.
While it looks doable, i'm losing interest in my paladin, so we will still have a prot paladin in our tank core, he will still tank bosses, but that paladin might not be me at this pace, which would suck since i still love my paladin.

But as i said, 20 more days, they got time... hopefully.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Khayne » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:54 pm

Thanks fafhrd.

Another small concern will be that if we are a bit worse tank at start, first raids will be better tanked by other tanks. Which leads them getting raid gear before us. Which means that even if we then get buffed, they´ll be better tank at the time because they got better gear.

Small concern, but neverthless something why all tanks need to be real close from get-go, otherwise someone has to try catch up.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:55 pm

Sahiel wrote:That's my real worry, 1 prot pally OT sure, guilds will take them for Sanc if nothing else most likely... but prot pally MTs or 2 prot pally tanks? I can't see it happening (in the majority of cases) without some fixes before release.

you really do not need BoSanct. Rage is a non-issue and there are only so many times 3% damage reduction is required. Dual prot warriors vigilancing each other is just as good, and ensures taunt is always up.
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:59 pm

Karock wrote:I also left out things like disease and poison cleansing (and totems) as well as cleanse. Though it's been my odd experience that dps shaman simply don't use their cleansing abilities and paladin do use theirs...


Well, that's a skill/assignment issue. As an elemental shaman, I'll definitely use my cleansing abilities, even as DPS, if it's not getting done by the healing corps, or I'm the only one who can get X thing, like poison in a 5-man w/o a pally or druid. However, if the healer(s) can handle it, I won't bother and keep shooting to help stuff die quicker. I'm always aware of it, though.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:00 pm

Well the upside of the TPS nerf is that at least there is now some symmetry with the prot pally spec. They are now pretty much the worst in every respect. All we need is for JoL to get fixed to hammer that last nail in.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:00 pm

Losing Worldie makes me think the nerfs are worse than I anticipated.

Ah, well. Game in progress, etc.
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Postby mavfin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:11 pm

baghead wrote:Well the upside of the TPS nerf is that at least there is now some symmetry with the prot pally spec. They are now pretty much the worst in every respect. All we need is for JoL to get fixed to hammer that last nail in.


My only comment to this thread, is that this is much like the announced nerfs to the druids back in early BC, that Blizzard de-nerfed half of with hotfixes just as the patch went live. Let's not engage in too much pre-whining till it's actually live, and WotLK is past the first week, ok? I had a druid then, and still do.

As far as threat currently being lower than warriors? My friend's pally tank is still putting out unbeatable threat now. The warrior and druid MTs that tanked 25-man content with him can't beat him.

Also, anyone that thinks pallies had it bad in BC is on crack. You weren't the ones getting kicked from groups in favor of pally tanks before you could even demonstrate tanking skill. I know groups that let them MT in 25-man content, and one of my friends is the most awesome tank of any kind that I know, and he happens to be a paladin. So, he got to tank 25-mans, and owned anything below that, too. He says himself it was a sweet deal.

If you were excluded from maintanking because your raidleader isn't open-minded enough, well, you need to find a different guild. If you stay, you know what you're in for. If they wouldn't change their mind then, they probably won't now, either. Find someone who subscribes to 'best player gets the job' and stick with it. If you're not good enough, get better. The classes really are that close right now.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:18 pm

Go ahead and vent if you have to. We won't delete posts or ban posters in this thread unless they are overly offensive. We do ask that you not launch a thousand other threads so that other paladin issues can still be discussed.


I lol'd at this comment, apparently they still remember this:

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Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:26 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Go ahead and vent if you have to. We won't delete posts or ban posters in this thread unless they are overly offensive. We do ask that you not launch a thousand other threads so that other paladin issues can still be discussed.


I lol'd at this comment, apparently they still remember this:

(image snip)


Bwahahahaha. that came to my mind also.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:27 pm

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Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:31 pm

mavfin wrote:As far as threat currently being lower than warriors? My friend's pally tank is still putting out unbeatable threat now. The warrior and druid MTs that tanked 25-man content with him can't beat him.

He was cheating and using JoL. Either that or find some good warriors. Warrior threat is simply insane right now and costs bugger all rage to maintain. (<3 revenge glyph)

Also, anyone that thinks pallies had it bad in BC is on crack. You weren't the ones getting kicked from groups in favor of pally tanks before you could even demonstrate tanking skill.

This was the only real issue that needed to be addressed. The AoE tanking capabilities of the other tanks were simply fail. I still think the AoE tanking normalisation was a great thing

If you were excluded from maintanking because your raidleader isn't open-minded enough, well, you need to find a different guild. If you stay, you know what you're in for. If they wouldn't change their mind then, they probably won't now, either. Find someone who subscribes to 'best player gets the job' and stick with it. If you're not good enough, get better. The classes really are that close right now.

I won't answer this as I just get my posts deleted. However, I disagree with your summary completely.
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Postby Meliora » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:39 pm

I understand that some changes had to go through for Ret dps and I understood that what they could do may be excessive. These changes though combined with where the class is at does make me sad though.

For WoTLK I was asked to make a priest and later a shaman for the good of the guild, and I raided hard and had a lot of fun before I was again asked to make this Paladin a main. Prot pre 3.0 was fun and I worked hard to do the best I could, reading as much as these forums had and actually enjoyed WoW more than I had in some time. With 3.0 I finally had the opportunity to avoid dailies, instances, etc as a Paladin and was welcomed to many 5/10/25 mans (mainly as ret and holy). The new spells have been intriguing and less downtime has actually made World of Warcraft very fun again to the point that I think I've played more since 3.0 than I have in the last 2 months of raiding.

Now I see paladin nerfs coming down the pipes, I try raiding holy and see the limitations in comparison to other classes, and when I go prot I can feel the large difference when compared to my druid. I am not asking for my Paladin to be better than any other class, but I want to be competitive and each time I see a new blue post on class changes it honestly makes me cringe. I feel like the old days in school when you got a pop quiz and felt your stomach twist into knots. I do not enjoy having to worry is my class going to be obsolete in just a couple months time while I see how well my shaman and priest do.

I know this post is just me venting and proclaiming how sad I am over this change, but I kind of wish GC or someone else would just come down and just honestly explain how they wish to implement the concept of each class being valuable in a raid when I see 3 paladin trees that are becoming less fun and each change becoming more saddening.
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Postby Ilara » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:47 pm

mavfin wrote:As far as threat currently being lower than warriors? My friend's pally tank is still putting out unbeatable threat now. The warrior and druid MTs that tanked 25-man content with him can't beat him.

Also, anyone that thinks pallies had it bad in BC is on crack.


just a few points.

Everyone is looking at the math of equally geared tankers as content pushes on. by the numbers, we fall behind.
I hold the stance that I agree with blizards opinion "all tanks should be equally as good" - in fact I love the idea - but as it stands, we fall behind. It's this fact re-occuring that has everyone on edge.

Within BC we were able to push through and find ourselves a MAJOR advantage over warriors; even with our health lower and so on, we found our ability to AoE tank, and the ability to maintain uncrushability (minus latency between casts). This was our foot in the door. after this became established, it was easier, yes.

We have lost these advantages now. Uncrushability has no meaning, and everyone under the sun can AoE. And now we are left under the other tanks. I think its pretty understandable people are beginning to wonder why they sit and endure it.

I do agree with you however, and Knaughty's earlier post how they must balance Ret first and the funnel down to Holy and Prot. Theres still time, and GC has stated that they will still be watching over prot.
I'm hoping it works out soon, and we don't lose our worldie.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:53 pm

Yep I'm definitely holding out on their pass after these nerfs.

It's plain as day that this is excessive but all we can do is wait and let them test.
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Postby Andryana » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:54 pm

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... =1&sid=1#0

I know many of you asked good questions before the posts hit their limit. I am not convinced that my answering many of these questions would calm anyone down, but I'll give it a shot. If not, when the paladin community has gotten it all out of their system, I'll still be here.

Also realize that there are probably a couple hundred questions at this point and I can't answer them all. Here are a few common themes:

I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.

You reviewed our class last because you don't care.
We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.

I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.

But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.

Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.

Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.

Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?
We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.

Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.

Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.

That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.
First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.

You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.

We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.
There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.

You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.
Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.

Our numbers are different from yours.
That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.

You said I wouldn't get banned.
You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.
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