GC's announcement as to our nerfs

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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:56 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Macha wrote:Your opinion is, sadly, outdated. Ret is not "the most powerful" buffing spec, nor close to that.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong.

• Might/Kings
• JoW/JoL
• Aura

• Damage %
• Haste %
• Crit strike chance taken
• Replenishment

Name me another spec that has a list that long and that good? Three different %-based damage boosts and Replenishment, plus the unique-to-paladin stuff, including "spec most likely to have Kings".

Only specs that come roughly even are balance and elemental, which again, combine really good spec-based buffs with really good class-based buffs (innervate/bres; totems/bloodlust). And I'd personally rate ret ahead of those two, but that's personal preference.
What knaughty said. Buffs have been spread around so that you aren't required to bring a class to get the job done. BoK, BoS, Fort, Heroism, MotW, and BR are all oddballs.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:59 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Macha wrote:Your opinion is, sadly, outdated. Ret is not "the most powerful" buffing spec, nor close to that.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong.

• Might/Kings
• JoW/JoL
• Aura

• Damage %
• Haste %
• Crit strike chance taken
• Replenishment

Name me another spec that has a list that long and that good? Three different %-based damage boosts and Replenishment, plus the unique-to-paladin stuff, including "spec most likely to have Kings".

Only specs that come roughly even are balance and elemental, which again, combine really good spec-based buffs with really good class-based buffs (innervate/bres; totems/bloodlust). And I'd personally rate ret ahead of those two, but that's personal preference.


178 strength and agility
20% melee haste
10% AP
4 charges of 20% more nature damage every 8 seconds
AoE area snare removal
34 mana every 2 seconds or 24 health every 2 seconds totem
raidwide fear prevention
Nature, fire, frost resistance totems and an armor totem

You were saying?
Last edited by Karock on Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:02 pm

Storm strike is self only now. Also throw in mobile stun and sanre removal for paladins. Don't forget BoW either.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:05 pm

Majiben wrote:Storm strike is self only now. Also throw in mobile stun and sanre removal for paladins. Don't forget BoW either.


Fair enough on Storm Strike. I think hand spells were already considered part of our paladin "kit."

I also left out things like disease and poison cleansing (and totems) as well as cleanse. Though it's been my odd experience that dps shaman simply don't use their cleansing abilities and paladin do use theirs...
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Postby Khayne » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:10 pm

I´m not sure what to do tbh if all those go in. I do got a warlock&rogue at lvl 70 allready (warlock was previous main so has decent gear even, to help off leveling), and warrior&shaman both at lvl 67 if i do want to change a main.

I really do want to stay paladin though, but if it´ll be a "i´ll be worse in everything (prot & ret) i want to do, because my class also can heal", i dont see the point. I were leveling the shaman for healing, and i guess guild can never have too many healers so should be easy to score a raid spot with him attleast :) .

Meh, i´ll wait until last minute when i get my hands on Wotlk, and choose then if things will be like they look like.

And at start of this week i were all giddy on either being prot or ret, both which would be awesome to be. Especially ret, i looked forward to being a real hybrid. Dish out real damage, throw some Hand spells, few instant FoL´s to other melee maybe...Now considering these nerfs into what i´ve seen of lvl 80 dps comparisons, i´d do less damage, i wouldn´t have enough mana for those instant FoL´s in any boss fight.

Can someone count how long, or indefinately we can use our dps rotation in lvl 80 raid now?
with cs,ds,judge, consecrate?
with only cs,ds, judge?
with one of those rotations and 1 FoL/rotation (i think we should have way over 33% crit when raiding anyawy so 1 AoW proc should be bare minimum when counting the mana usage)?

I did do some table cloth math earlier but couldn´t be sure on what´s our exact lvl 80 base mana, where our total mana will be around when in raids there. So my counting of JotW returns and replenishment&divine plea were sure to be only crude approximations.

Someone interested in bringing in some cold, hard numbers?

P.S. Extra Hand spells will be great, but after 2 paladins i dont see the 3rd one as that great. battle shout is decent enough that i dont count BoM as a huge gain, and with the seal nerf there´s allready another thread about how conviction compares to SotP, so you could just have holy go utility, and grab kings on way to DG, while you grab heart of the crusade on way to conviction. All get kings, you give BoM/BoW/BoS based on role. Not too many classes really need 3 blessings if we count shout to replace BoM. hunters may be out of battle shout refreshing ranges so he´ll want might so would miss on wisdom, enhance shaman and we prot paladins might need wisdom?.

I see alot of rets power resting on replenishment, 3rd aura and it´s bonuses (the 3% haste and 2% damage). Otherwise prot will judge light (for threat reasons), and holy judges wisdom.

I´m not saying ret is total crap, what i´m saying is, ret isn´t that awesome that they warrant having less dps than other classes/trees that bring bonuses.
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Postby fafhrd » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:14 pm

Karock wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
Macha wrote:Your opinion is, sadly, outdated. Ret is not "the most powerful" buffing spec, nor close to that.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong.

• Might/Kings
• JoW/JoL
• Aura

• Damage %
• Haste %
• Crit strike chance taken
• Replenishment

Name me another spec that has a list that long and that good? Three different %-based damage boosts and Replenishment, plus the unique-to-paladin stuff, including "spec most likely to have Kings".

Only specs that come roughly even are balance and elemental, which again, combine really good spec-based buffs with really good class-based buffs (innervate/bres; totems/bloodlust). And I'd personally rate ret ahead of those two, but that's personal preference.


178 strength and agility
20% melee haste
10% AP
4 charges of 20% more nature damage every 8 seconds
AoE area snare removal
34 mana every 2 seconds or 24 health every 2 seconds totem
raidwide fear prevention
Nature, fire, frost resistance totems and an armor totem

You were saying?


Now we're going in circles. There's no point listing all the shared buffs everyone provides, just the unique ones.

But if you insist:

20% melee haste provided by other classes
10% AP provided by other classes
(Stormstrike irrelevant)
Mana Spring totem unique, but BoW is unique too
Nature fire and frost resist all provided by other classes (2 of them by pallies)

That leaves unique shaman stuff:
Ankh, Aoe fear/poison cleanse, mana spring/tide, SoE, heroism (only need one shaman for that for the whole raid).

vs. Unique paladin stuff:
10% all stats, BoW, whatever blessing you want to put on a tank, HoF, HoS, HoP, DI, all judgements, and higher DPS (that's debatable though, seems higher at 70, on naxx25:patchwerk it's gone back and forth)
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:17 pm

I was replying to the comment that Retribution Paladin were "the best buffers" and therefore "deserved to be lower in damage*"
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Postby fafhrd » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:19 pm

Karock wrote:I was replying to the comment that Retribution Paladin were "the best buffers" and therefore "deserved to be lower in damage*"


The same one that said "Only specs that come roughly even are balance and elemental" then :o ?

Given that your post was just a list of buffs ending with "you were saying?" it was hard to figure out what point you were making quoting that post, sorry.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:23 pm

That was enhancement ;o

Also I missed that.

EDIT: I mean I missed the "elemental and balance" part, and yes that's the one I was replying too. Sorry for being unclear :3
Last edited by Karock on Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Khayne » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:23 pm

And before someone points out, Yes, you could aswell take a ret paladin to give all the benefits of being the 2nd paladin in raid, but considering the needed amount of healers/raid when compared to healing specs/all specs, i count 1 paladin spot for holy paladin gone. So either the prot or ret paldin will give most of the benefits of "Extra paladin in raid", given that you usually dont take more tanks than you really need to, it´s dependant on the amount of tanks for guild if it´s better to have prot paladin (you absolutely need tanks in raid), or an dps paladin (if no tank paladin, you´ll get alot of utility, otherwise half of it has allready been coming from prot one).

Also, would love it if someone could do the math for my lazy ass, or give me the Base Mana of lvl 80, and how much mana in total we go with in raids usually (AI, MotW, BoK i guess)
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Postby sahiel » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:25 pm

Jasari wrote:I'll bet they weren't even really looking at TPS comparisons between tanks yet. It seems they're more concerned with balancing DPS output between DPS classes right now. Kind of like when we were behind in mitigation and it took them a while to actually do serious mitigation balancing. Eventually they got around to it, and did a pretty good job. Once they're pleased with DPS class balance, I'm sure they'll take a closer look at tank threat output. Until they say something along the lines of "we're happy with tank threat balance" I'm gong to assume they haven't addressed it yet.


The problem I see here is that they need this done before Wrath hits, otherwise a lot of (admittedly small minded) raid leaders will level to 80 seeing Pally tanks are strictly behind on threat and once they start forming raids that's going to be their view regardless of Blizz buffing us once people are 80 and raiding.

It's a sad fact but many guilds will take the perceived best tank from their experience leveling and run with that, and being the 'last' threat tank in that leveling spree is going to hurt a lot of pallies chances of being MTs or perhaps even tanking at all once they start raiding at 80.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:27 pm

If that's true Sahiel I think we'll be fine =P

After all, we ARE still the best AoE (and thus 5 man) tanks in terms of threat. Also unless something changes drastically we're not going to be pressed for threat no matter what tanking class we play.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:29 pm

To the aboves, just might be worth saying that Tremor totems and Mana Tide totems are not raidwide.

Still, my warrior (again, tier shit) holds AoE threat in raid as my paladin.

I was like AoEtanking TK trashs today, since the other warrior and the paladin could not outthreat me. Ok, they maybe just sucked, but still the point stands. The T6 dps were not threatcapped :\
So the "we're the best AoE tank" point is somehow false atm, we do it slightly better, but that's all. Plus, Shockweave is such a powerful thing for 5 men that annihilates Consecration.

Just have to wait tbh, still ~20 days before WotLK. Maybe they'll fix that.
If not... i think our guild will not run 2 prot paladins after all.
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Postby fafhrd » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:38 pm

Khayne wrote:Also, would love it if someone could do the math for my lazy ass, or give me the Base Mana of lvl 80, and how much mana in total we go with in raids usually (AI, MotW, BoK i guess)


Paladin base at 80 is 4114 I think. No idea about actual mana buffed in expected gear though.
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Postby sahiel » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:38 pm

Worldie wrote:Just have to wait tbh, still ~20 days before WotLK. Maybe they'll fix that.
If not... i think our guild will not run 2 prot paladins after all.


That's my real worry, 1 prot pally OT sure, guilds will take them for Sanc if nothing else most likely... but prot pally MTs or 2 prot pally tanks? I can't see it happening (in the majority of cases) without some fixes before release.
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