GC's announcement as to our nerfs

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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:11 pm

Less QQ more perspective.

(1) Ret will be a very common spec, simply because DPS is more common than tanks or healers. Paladins tend to discount ret because it sucked until 2.3. That's one entire expansion and half the next one. But the design of the game is that most hybrids will be DPS spec.

(2) Ret is by far the hardest spec to balance. They double-dip via AP -> SP conversions. They scale in all sorts of weird ways. They have access to every DPS ability, including the ones used by prot and holy. (Well, not hammer/holy-shock, but you get the point).

(3) Overtuned or undertuned DPS is blatantly obvious and can be game breaking. A healer being 10% over or under isn't even visible.

(4) Ret is the levelling spec. It's the one 90% of pallies will spec on the 13th of November. You have two extra weeks to tune the other specs.

It is much easier to balance Ret first. Ret should not be a "top 3" DPS spec. Ret is one of the most powerful buffing specs in game, maybe the most powerful @ 80. There is supposed to be a small tradeoff in exchange for being radically OP for group synergy. Right now... Ret is most power buffing class and highest melee DPS and radically OP in PvP.

Ret should be down with elemental, balance, shadow, etc, maybe 10% behind the rogues.

GC has repeatedly said that after Ret is tuned right, they ill look at Prot DPS/TPS and Holy grind/solo DPS. There's no damn point tuning Holy/Prot DPS until ret is right, because tuning ret requires that you tune every DPS ability, or you end up with weirdness like ret using SoV or SoR. After Ret is tuned (nerfed to the ground) enough, then it is dead easy to fix Holy / Prot.

Add a few more "1% damage" talents to the bottom half of prot. (No +threat please, we already have far too high a threat modifier). It is something of a difficult issue, because overall tuning is something like 20% under, not 5%, so you need to do a lot of "awesome small tweaks" or a few massive ones.

Holy is harder, but someone suggested a high-end seal that scaled heavily with spell-power. The trick is to avoid prot and ret being tempted to strap on spell-power gear.
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Postby stevebeiser » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:19 pm

I'd just like to highlight two parts of the ret balancing. The balancing was apparently to tone down the burst of Ret paladins.

20% nerf to seal damage

Increased Critical damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm


So.... less damage each swing, and more damage when you crit.
Does that sound less bursty or am I just reading things incorrectly?
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Postby Drathian » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:20 pm

stevebeiser wrote:I'd just like to highlight two parts of the ret balancing. The balancing was apparently to tone down the burst of Ret paladins.

20% nerf to seal damage

Increased Critical damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm


So.... less damage each swing, and more damage when you crit.
Does that sound less bursty or am I just reading things incorrectly?


It USED to be increased critical damage bonus, it's being CHANGED to a flat damage increase for all those abilities.
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Postby stevebeiser » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:24 pm

Oh I see. So decrease them across the board for all specs, then buff them back up deep in the ret tree. I see how that works.



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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:25 pm

It is much easier to balance Ret first. Ret should not be a "top 3" DPS spec. Ret is one of the most powerful buffing specs in game, maybe the most powerful @ 80. There is supposed to be a small tradeoff in exchange for being radically OP for group synergy. Right now... Ret is most power buffing class and highest melee DPS and radically OP in PvP.


Read up on the buff homogenisation Blizzard did a while ago.
Ret brings nothing other classes do not bring, except that other classes do more damage. Crit judgement? We'll bring it.

Your opinion is, sadly, outdated. Ret is not "the most powerful" buffing spec, nor close to that. s.

Ret should be down with elemental, balance, shadow, etc, maybe 10% behind the rogues.


So, why should Fury warriors, enhancement shamans, arms warriors, oomkins be higher than Ret Paladins? They currently are by quite a bit, and fury warriors are even getting buffed.

You probably didn't really read about buff homogenisation and their design goals. Ret was supposed to be within 5% of the top. Now, they're within 5% of the tanks. Well, non-Paladin tanks, of course. Paladin tanks are at rock bottom too.


So, yes, Please get more perspective, and qq less about qqing.
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:28 pm

So like, this is going to hurt levelling isn't it? I mean baby Paladins don't have all the ret damage talents to get back up there.
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Postby Tats » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:29 pm

you must be doing something wrong in instances then. check some parses, protection is doing a significant amount of damage in raids.

speaking of that. i really, really hate when they nerf pve based on the kids crying about pvp. i really wish they would segregate PVE and PVP, and stop trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:30 pm

Levantine wrote:So like, this is going to hurt levelling isn't it? I mean baby Paladins don't have all the ret damage talents to get back up there.


That's like saying "This dirt is too dirty!"
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:31 pm

Karock wrote:
Levantine wrote:So like, this is going to hurt levelling isn't it? I mean baby Paladins don't have all the ret damage talents to get back up there.


That's like saying "This dirt is too dirty!"


I suppose. I did manage to get a Priest to 70, and that's not a fun thing to do.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:33 pm

Levantine wrote:
Karock wrote:
Levantine wrote:So like, this is going to hurt levelling isn't it? I mean baby Paladins don't have all the ret damage talents to get back up there.


That's like saying "This dirt is too dirty!"


I suppose. I did manage to get a Priest to 70, and that's not a fun thing to do.


=P My priest was a joy to level... because I didn't know any better /cry

It was my second character after a release paladin /shudder
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Postby fafhrd » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:36 pm

Macha wrote:Read up on the buff homogenisation Blizzard did a while ago.
Ret brings nothing other classes do not bring, except that other classes do more damage. Crit judgement? We'll bring it.


Sorry, but ret does bring things other classes don't. Not all by being ret, but by being a paladin. You still want all 3 of Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Wisdom and Blessing of Might in your raids - BoK is provided by no other class at all, BoW is provided by no other class at all, and BoM is better than battleshout since it lasts longer, even through death of the buffer.

On top of that each extra paladin you bring brings an extra Hand, and possibly and extra judgement on the target.

None of the other hybrids give you high DPS, double duty mana battery + aoe healer, AND an extra blessing/hand. In a world where there's no reason to bring more than 2 of really any class, paladins are still the ones you want to bring at least 3 of, and making one of those ret is better than bringing an extra spriest for replenishment or an extra something else for 3% crit, because those don't give you an extra blessing you need as well.
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Postby Glam » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:36 pm

I'm not in beta and unfortunately not in a position to play until Thursday, but I have to wonder if there might be an easy way to bring prot spec back to its previous dps potential prior to this nerf. Seems to me that an easy fix for prot is to just buff the seals and judgements back to where they were through the 1H specialization talent. This obviously doesn't address the issue for Holy, but it is a possibility for Prot since it is deep enough in the tree that Ret wouldn't get to it.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:45 pm

But Fafhrd you are conveniently ignoring things like every Druid bringing a Battle Resurrection as well as an innervate no matter what spec in addition to their other roll specific buffs, etc. (Yes I'm aware I chose the best counter example, I did so on purpose).
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Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:47 pm

Macha wrote:Your opinion is, sadly, outdated. Ret is not "the most powerful" buffing spec, nor close to that.

You're entitled to your opinion, but:

• Might/Kings
• JoW/JoL
• Aura

• Damage %
• Haste %
• Crit strike chance taken
• Replenishment

Name me another spec that has a list that long and that good? Three different %-based damage boosts and Replenishment, plus the unique-to-paladin stuff, including "spec most likely to have Kings".

Seriously, rather than just contradicting someone, and saying "you're wrong becuz I say so" come up with an actual counter-argument, with information in it.

Only specs that come roughly even are balance and elemental, which again, combine really good spec-based buffs with really good class-based buffs (innervate/bres; totems/bloodlust). And I'd personally rate ret ahead of those two, but that's personal preference.
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Postby fafhrd » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:54 pm

Karock wrote:But Fafhrd you are conveniently ignoring things like every Druid bringing a Battle Resurrection as well as an innervate no matter what spec in addition to their other roll specific buffs, etc. (Yes I'm aware I chose the best counter example, I did so on purpose).


And the funny thing? No one's been bitching about druids being overpowered in PvP or PvE for the past few months - they do good to excellent DPS as balance (haven't seen a high feral parse in months, not sure what's going on there), they have great raid utility (and MotW is another unique buff, although not one that people really miss when it's gone), and by all indications are exactly where blizzard wants all hybrids to be - i.e. they're probably trying to get ret pallies to being as desirable in raids as a balance or cat druid, instead of the current position of being more desirable.
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