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How hard did the Nerf hit our TPS?

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Postby Markoh » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:47 am

When we did sunwell this week I noticed that too, with the jol bug I had no problem being 2nd but I couldn't out tps the warrior if I wanted to, also we had a druid that was above me too.

Granted they have better gear than me (I'm a mix of t6 and sunwell and they are full sunwell). I think that the threat from jol is intended b/c without it I would be destroyed in threat.
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:29 am

Worldie wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Worldie wrote:
JUSTISE wrote:iono about us being the "least tps generating tanks" but I kno I overtake aggro from our warrior tanks easily. He is more geared than I am. (Not considering me using Wings)

That warrior then fails, because i cannot possibly generate more TPS than a same geared warrior as me.

Hell, my warrior generates like 500 TPS less than my paladin, one is full crap, other is full t6.5.


maybe he's referring to the JoL bug

Thing is, i'm talking *with* the judgement bug.

My warrior goes around 2400 TPS raidbuffed, my paladin around 3k on average-raiddamage fight (not as excessive as felmyst nor unexistant as attumen)


Just quoting to agree to Worldi: My warrior is the same - undergeared compared to my Paladin, and yet does the same or more threat. There is NO way for a well-played warrior to be even close to the threat of a Paladin: It is far higher, and that is not even counting Vigiliance.

This is only not an issue because threat is not an issue. If threat ever becomes an issue, this will be an issue.

This also hurts off-tanking viability, as we consequently also offer the lowest dps of the tanks, both while tanking and while offtanking.


No, it doesn't make it unplayable as some silly people try to insist we are saying - it just is another spot where we are weak which might potentially harm us in the future.

I think that the threat from jol is intended b/c without it I would be destroyed in threat.


Have fun with the next patch, then.
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Postby Helpunot » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:56 pm

Soooo... what I'm thinking is, and keeping in line with blizz not liking pallies overall (who can blame em, we are their toughest class to balance around... OMG... PVP which screws all of our specs in PVE), we got 1 overall buff for wrath, we now take only a little more damage than warriors. Yeah we got other buffs / skills, but if things stay the same (which they wont, they will change stuff I am sure but there probably is no way in their minds to fix our tps / dps to make us viable in raids as, OMG, offtanks again - /wrists now) we will still be in WotLK last place tanks.

Overall its not gonna matter to me, whereas I see people complaining about how warriors out threat them now, our warrior HAS to use vigilance on me or I will pull threat off him (prior to 3.0 he was pulling a constant 1.7k+ tps in sunwell, this should vouch for his skills as a player) and consequently has moved into the "let help tank everything" role.

Do your thing now while u can pallies, get in good with ur guild, show ur skills while blizz lets you keep the tools to show off, because remember there are plenty of tankadins out there who have become their guilds MT through skill even though we were last place tanks.

Was there a point to this post? Nope, just me venting I guess.
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Postby snowwight » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:34 pm

Err, I haven't been following these forums that closely recently (actually I've been leveling and gearing up my warrior, which seems particularly wise now), but the last numbers I saw from ziggy had our dps and tps above warriors? When did this change?
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Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:52 pm

We never had more TPS than a warrior, we have that only on a heavy raid damage fight due to JoL.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby snowwight » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:55 pm

Worldie wrote:We never had more TPS than a warrior, we have that only on a heavy raid damage fight due to JoL.


Err, last spreadsheet I saw was ziggys here and it showed paladins with a comfortable lead once raid buffs were accounted for. Was there some sort of error in this?
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Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:59 pm

10 of october, lot of nerfs came in last 2 weeks :)
Seal/judgement damage got nerfed like, twice.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Markoh » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:14 pm

Macha wrote:
Have fun with the next patch, then.


Ya I'm starting to get that feeling. Our feral druid is probably the best I've ever played with, that combined with all of our tanks are competent and skilled means wotlk will be interesting to see who actually gets to tank.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:24 pm

I am more concerned with how hard this hit our sustained DPS/mana regen in single target encounters.

Whats it compare like now to an equivalently geared Prot Warrior or Bear Druid?

Seems like the nerfs to our damage output and mana-sustainability in single target fights has been constantly nerfed lately.

We can't always be pulling in multiple mobs just to stay high on mana.

How is this affecting our dps on casters? (you know the ones that dont swing often, so BoSanc is useless)

At least when HoW was at 35% you had one more burst damage move...

I see most of the comparisons referring to raid buffed damage/mana regen etc...but what about without?
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:44 pm

As long as we get damage, I'm sure our mana will be fine. Spiritual Attunement is still pretty good.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:08 pm

Macha wrote:As long as we get damage, I'm sure our mana will be fine. Spiritual Attunement is still pretty good.


Thats pretty short sited...lots of encounters, you dont take that much damage..we dont want to be back in the position of taking off gear to tank...

Dont get tunnel vision, where your only seeing our viability as how we are doing in progression level encounters.

Its been my belief since beta started, that we were probably going to have issues being close in DPS simply because our threat-magnifier was the highest of the tanking classes.

Because of this, it means our sustained dps has to be the lowest, in order to balance us with other tanking classes for threat purposes.

This really is bad design because it nerfs our viability for soloing, farming, etc.

Frankly, with the latest nerfs to our self-healing and mana-regen while in combat (JoL/JoW), I would be interested in how much we are self-healing now versus druids who heal 4% of health on every crit (not sure if this is subject to cooldown), if I recall.

We were already in a position, when soloing a single mob, that we went into a mana deficit. Now we are going to be even worse off.

SA is only a raid/group scenario mana-regen...doesnt do a damn thing for you when your soloing/leveling.

Some of the paladins in this community who are on beta, should be asking Blizz to balance the threat modifiers and at the same time balance the DPS of the tanking classes so they are all within a few percent of each other.

They did a fairly decent job of balancing mitigation, though I still believe that we have a lower total TTL than warriors or druids do.

They need to do the same thing to balance DPS/TPS generation.

I havent seen any warriors complaining about being rage starved lately, but I know that I can still get mana-starved, especially against casters or slow hitting mobs.
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Postby baghead » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:24 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Frankly, with the latest nerfs to our self-healing and mana-regen while in combat (JoL/JoW), I would be interested in how much we are self-healing now versus druids who heal 4% of health on every crit (not sure if this is subject to cooldown), if I recall.

LotP has a 6 second cooldown. Not sure whether this can be glyphed lower.
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:29 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Macha wrote:As long as we get damage, I'm sure our mana will be fine. Spiritual Attunement is still pretty good.


Thats pretty short sited...lots of encounters, you dont take that much damage..we dont want to be back in the position of taking off gear to tank...


Beta experience. No encounter in Naxx had me seriously starved for mana, and on many I never used judgement of wisdom.

The problem is solo, mostly questing. Not instances.

Dont get tunnel vision, where your only seeing our viability as how we are doing in progression level encounters.


That is not tunnel vision: Only progression level encounters matter. For everything else in instances, we can simply downgrade equip. That is not an issue.

Its been my belief since beta started, that we were probably going to have issues being close in DPS simply because our threat-magnifier was the highest of the tanking classes. .


Yes, that is correct, and we observe that now.
You have a point here, but about mana, you do not.

Some of the paladins in this community who are on beta, should be asking Blizz to balance the threat modifiers and at the same time balance the DPS of the tanking classes so they are all within a few percent of each other.


Already done - it got ignored repeatedly. Quite frankly, it is too late now. They had their chance to actually change our design, and they decided not to.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:34 pm

Macha wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Macha wrote:As long as we get damage, I'm sure our mana will be fine. Spiritual Attunement is still pretty good.


Thats pretty short sited...lots of encounters, you dont take that much damage..we dont want to be back in the position of taking off gear to tank...


Beta experience. No encounter in Naxx had me seriously starved for mana, and on many I never used judgement of wisdom.

The problem is solo, mostly questing. Not instances.

Dont get tunnel vision, where your only seeing our viability as how we are doing in progression level encounters.


That is not tunnel vision: Only progression level encounters matter. For everything else in instances, we can simply downgrade equip. That is not an issue.

Its been my belief since beta started, that we were probably going to have issues being close in DPS simply because our threat-magnifier was the highest of the tanking classes. .


Yes, that is correct, and we observe that now.
You have a point here, but about mana, you do not.

Some of the paladins in this community who are on beta, should be asking Blizz to balance the threat modifiers and at the same time balance the DPS of the tanking classes so they are all within a few percent of each other.


Already done - it got ignored repeatedly. Quite frankly, it is too late now. They had their chance to actually change our design, and they decided not to.


Hmm, let me put it another way...

If Tank A does 1400 dps and holds threat fine, and Tank D does 800 dps and holds threat fine, then any and every raid leader will choose Tank A over Tank D...do we really want to be Tank D again???
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:38 pm

Just wait until we figure out that there actually are bosses that mana burn and cast long silences on the tank. Oh and for anyone who doubts you owe me a drink when we find the first one.

p.s. frost immune bosses already screw over DK tanks (especially frost DKs) so don't kid yourself about them not screwing us over too
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