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Ret DPS Nerfs -> Prot DPS Nerfs

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Ret DPS Nerfs -> Prot DPS Nerfs

Postby 2ndNin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:57 am

At current Blizzard seems to be smashing DPS on us all over the shop (and other issues), the reason being enigmatic but seeming to resolve around:

a) Ret burst is too high (tests show its middle of the pack @ 80)
b) Sustainable (ie: infinite) resource
c) Healing

b) is arguably the way it should be (33% base JOTW) as it puts them in with every other melee class in being relatively non-constrained by their resource pool except when going beyond the base rotation.

c) Fits well with the hybrid paradigm, and made sense, Ret could deplete b) in order to allow some minor healing, this is the equivalent for us of an MS type debuff, rather than being able to beat through healing, we could sustain ourselves indefinitely against someone not going all out to kill us.

a) Was apparently the main issue (and several classes including mages, hunters, rogues, warriors) could all out burst us. The issue with Ret being bursty has a simple PvE conclusion (harder for PvP due to the lack of healing debuffs etc as non-burst doesn't function well there), buff consecration.

Consecration is a AEDoT (Area Effect DoT), to take "burst" damage from it you need to stand in it, in Arena / BG someone standing for a long duration in it deserves to die, in PvE the bosses rarely have a large movement on an 8s timer meaning we should get reasonable usage from it.

Take the Ret DPS nerfs for PvP and throw them into consecration, means Prot gets a buff while tanking (making up for reduced seals), Ret gets sustained damage and fixes "burst". Either that or add a similar effect, a stacking vengence as a tier 1-2 rat that builds up damage for all builds with seal usage.

TL:DR, Buff consecration, its an AEDoT so isn't burst.
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:17 am

At some point, I'm getting tired of arguing over and over.
Blizard's still Blizard, they haven't changed much the way the handle paladins.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:18 am

How again is buffing our most mana ineffecient spell good for us?

As well NEVER should consecration EVER be our best single target TPS move BECAUSE it's AoE. If it is, they've failed.
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Postby PsiVen » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:19 am

There's a problem with buffing Consecration as far as Prot goes, though.

For AoE, it's already the most powerful spell there is.

For Single Target, it's worthless for a soloing Protadin and is the only ability we use at a diminished uptime in current rotations.


If there's a change to Consecration, say it gets an extra second of duration as well as a higher AP coefficient... That helps our tanking, but what about solo play? Holy and Prot are still pretty boned when it comes to killing things with reasonable speed. Say what you will about ShoR, the worst one-at-a-time grinding classes in the game are by far these 2 specs of paladins.
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Postby Karock » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:21 am

Not to mention it further widens the gap between us and other tanks for AoE threat. (Yes this is bad.)
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Postby æ » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:24 am

PsiVen wrote:There's a problem with buffing Consecration as far as Prot goes, though.

For AoE, it's already the most powerful spell there is.

For Single Target, it's worthless for a soloing Protadin and is the only ability we use at a diminished uptime in current rotations.


If there's a change to Consecration, say it gets an extra second of duration as well as a higher AP coefficient... That helps our tanking, but what about solo play? Holy and Prot are still pretty boned when it comes to killing things with reasonable speed. Say what you will about ShoR, the worst one-at-a-time grinding classes in the game are by far these 2 specs of paladins.


Prot/Holy are not as bad as that solo play. Prot is doing around as much as a demonology lock even if the prot need to be watered more. Holy looks pretty f'ed though. What do they have? SoR and a shock? They need some sort of something.
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:35 am

æ wrote:
Prot/Holy are not as bad as that solo play. Prot is doing around as much as a demonology lock even if the prot need to be watered more. Holy looks pretty f'ed though. What do they have? SoR and a shock? They need some sort of something.


Uhm, a demon lock does about 50% more damage than a Prot Paladin, but try again.
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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:37 am

Macha wrote:
æ wrote:
Prot/Holy are not as bad as that solo play. Prot is doing around as much as a demonology lock even if the prot need to be watered more. Holy looks pretty f'ed though. What do they have? SoR and a shock? They need some sort of something.


Uhm, a demon lock does about 50% more damage than a Prot Paladin, but try again.
Prehaps he meant without the pet dpsing?
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Postby Boomtank » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:45 am

heres what i think.
Lower consecrationc cost by 10-20% and, increase coefficiant by about 5% SP and AP, and give it the ability to crit.

Wont effect pvp to much because its not bursty aoe, lets call it an AoeDot.

DK's have lots of aoe, warriors have thunderclap infinite targets and shockwave, and the sunder armor glyph, and druids can mangle more than one target (unless they changed that) and can swipe infinite targets.

All tanks can aoe, but this hold pallies as still being the best, and make up for the judgement nerf
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Postby 2ndNin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:17 am

If you want top manage its threat put a 0.75% coefficient on its damage, or 0.5 or whatever, its been done for Holy before (Healing spells).

Consecration is likely the answer to Ret's burst, in terms of making Prot and Holy more efficient, make it like 3% of base mana, it is only a mana hog in terms of mana based on the current cost, if you actually make it cheap it doesn't affect ret realistically (JotW should allow them to use it anyway), for Prot and Holy it gives us an effective way to keep dps / threat up and reduce the reliance on burst techniques.

Arguing about it being high cost is pointless, since thats a 6 keystrike change if Blizzard wants it to be effective. What it is is a SUSTAINED dps route for us and Ret, being BURSTY is the issue we want to address, while sustaining threat.
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:32 am

Boomtank wrote:All tanks can aoe, but this hold pallies as still being the best,


NO. This is a horrible thing to be "best" at, and it would only be used to not give us what we actually need. We do not need more AOE threat. Other tanks do.

If they really wanted to add "consecration" like damage to Retri without affecting prot aggro, they just have to be smart.

Consecrated strike
20-50% of Consecration as mana cost
Shares cooldown with consecration
applies a dot to the target doing (consecration) damage over 8 seconds.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:36 am

IMO revert it all back to 3.0.2 and let people learn that if they let a Ret pally get inside their melee range, they deserve the goddamn beating that's coming their way.
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Postby Haganomir » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:47 pm

crabcrouton wrote:IMO revert it all back to 3.0.2 and let people learn that if they let a Ret pally get inside their melee range, they deserve the goddamn beating that's coming their way.

Yeah, sounds like a good plan and next we get rid of all other melee-classes.
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