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Postby halabar » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:35 am

Sabindeus wrote:Where the hell did this come from? Didn't you just say you were happy with our damage? What gives???


The QQ of others, even though they'll never admit it. Ret was so strong that they could give ret nothing but rubber swords and the "perception" would be that ret is op... Ret is the new lock for now.. except it's not true anymore, even if all other classes think it is.
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Postby Proudfoot » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:35 am

Passionario wrote:*places his hand on the /reroll button and waits to see if these changes make it to live*


Rerolling should not even be something you HAVE to consider. I have several lv70 alts in live that I've basically been forced to play to be competitive over the last 4 years. My chosen spec has always been and always will be Ret... if it isn't viable this time around I'd rather quit then put up with the garbage for another expansion. I don't know if I will or not but being lied to is getting old.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:41 am

Girard wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Girard wrote:Ret was not fine, GC and other Devs said repeatedly that Ret was bugged, and was in need of being tuned down in order to bring them into line.


Any reference you have seen to ret related bugs in comments made by GC was the 2H Spec bug that I'm sure people here are familiar with that let you stack % damage by equipping and unequipping your weapon.

Now that that bug is fixed, they said they were going to finally be able to balance damage.

Which is what they are doing now, albeit with a heavy hand.


No that bug had been fixed and with the last round of ret only nerfs, GC was pretty specific that ret DPS was good, but burst was bad. That's why they added buffs to counter the nerfs. This is just a series of class wide nerfs.
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:57 am

Fridmarr wrote:No that bug had been fixed and with the last round of ret only nerfs, GC was pretty specific that ret DPS was good, but burst was bad. That's why they added buffs to counter the nerfs. This is just a series of class wide nerfs.


Seal nerfs impacts much more retribution and protection than holy.
33% less AP, 10% less SP for SoV !!!

Also I can't belive they just nerfed retribution.
Judgement of wisdom does much less damages and Retribution wouldn't be likely to use SoW.

This build lacking from comment from GC is a general failure for protection esp regarding dps while not tanking.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:10 am

Belarkan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:No that bug had been fixed and with the last round of ret only nerfs, GC was pretty specific that ret DPS was good, but burst was bad. That's why they added buffs to counter the nerfs. This is just a series of class wide nerfs.


Seal nerfs impacts much more retribution and protection than holy.
33% less AP, 10% less SP for SoV !!!

Also I can't belive they just nerfed retribution.
Judgement of wisdom does much less damages and Retribution wouldn't be likely to use SoW.

This build lacking from comment from GC is a general failure for protection esp regarding dps while not tanking.

Let me clarify, "this" patch was a series of class wide nerfs. There previously was a round of ret only nerfs (Divine Storm, Art of War etc), which was the result of their testing post the 2hand spec bug.

I could not imagine leveling has Holy Right now...brutal.
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Postby Levantine » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:11 am

I have no idea what you're getting at saying Judgement of Wisdom does less damage. All three Judgements do the same damage, modified by the active Seal.

And they were nerfed. Hard. Stupid Sheath of Light.

Stupid pointless nerf to Judgements of the Wise. I still fail to see how turning their mana bar into a pseudo energy bar was OP. :/
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:22 am

Levantine wrote:I have no idea what you're getting at saying Judgement of Wisdom does less damage. All three Judgements do the same damage, modified by the active Seal.

And they were nerfed. Hard. Stupid Sheath of Light.

Stupid pointless nerf to Judgements of the Wise. I still fail to see how turning their mana bar into a pseudo energy bar was OP. :/


Right, I was still with the old judgment.
Anyway, I still can't find excuses for the lack of communication there.
It just feels like a betrayal.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:23 am

Belarkan wrote:
Levantine wrote:I have no idea what you're getting at saying Judgement of Wisdom does less damage. All three Judgements do the same damage, modified by the active Seal.

And they were nerfed. Hard. Stupid Sheath of Light.

Stupid pointless nerf to Judgements of the Wise. I still fail to see how turning their mana bar into a pseudo energy bar was OP. :/


Right, I was still with the old judgment.
Anyway, I still can't find excuses for the lack of communication there.
It just feels like a betrayal.


Well the beta forums don't work, so that could be part of it. Seriously, they'd be exploding right now if they were working right.
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Postby Grimmal » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:27 am

Macha wrote:Except that nobody was doing that, and you are just overreacting by far. Otherwise, you should be able to show where someone actually said that Ret Paladin players directly wanted this because...nobody said that. People did say that the cause is the Retribution Paladin, which is, well, a fact.


The implication is there otherwise a longtime Ret Paladin like Proudfoot wouldn't have felt the same urge to speak up about it many pages ago.

As for venom, one of the responses to my first post in this thread is nothing but imo. Enough so that apparently one of the mods was willing to call him out for it. (though to be honest it wasn't the only reason I'm sure)

Quite simply, making up "venom" and strawmen does not make you look smart, and does not make your arguments work. The fact is still that Sheath of Light is the problem, and has so far caused repeated nerfs to seals across the board.


If Sheath is the problem, then they should be fixing Sheath. Is that somehow a failed notion, or does nerfing seals that Ret Paladins don't even use do something for that?

Wrong. The only explaination to these changes is that Ret is doing too much damage, and that they nerfed all seals to ensure that Ret does not switch to Vengeance/Corruption again.


They nerfed all of the seals so that Ret wouldn't simply switch to Vengeance? Does that even make sense to you? If they didn't want Ret using Vengenance, they would have nerfed it and left the other three seals alone. Three seals that Ret don't bother using the vast majority of the time.

If you actually look at the beta and the patches instead of making things up and screaming that other people who disagree are evil meanies who just hate ret, you will notice that they did this before for the same reason. If they only nerfed blood/command, Retri Paladins would have used other seals. It's really that simple.
Coming here and pretending this isn't the case does not work. We already know better.


Surprise, I'm actually in beta so I have been keeping up with the patches. If you don't believe me, I'll log in and say hi to you if we can get a playing time that meets up.

Again, the damage on the other three seals is so sad in comparison to even the nerfed Command/Blood that a Ret Paladin wouldn't have bothered. Sure a Ret might be bothered to use Seal of Light at times, but you would have never seen one using it in regular rotation for dps. Therefore perhaps, just perhaps it wasn't nerfed because of them and for some other reason?

---

There are plenty of 'easy' fixes for Ret while allowing Prot/Holy to maintain what they have. Seals requiring weapon types (1 Hand or 2 Hand) that has been discussed on this forum for example. Blizzard isn't choosing them...

So again I say, there must be a reason more than Ret.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:27 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well the beta forums don't work, so that could be part of it. Seriously, they'd be exploding right now if they were working right.


IT'S A CONSPIRACY

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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:34 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well the beta forums don't work, so that could be part of it. Seriously, they'd be exploding right now if they were working right.


IT'S A CONSPIRACY



More likely they exploded because of paladin's feedback :p
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:43 am

Grimmal wrote:They nerfed all of the seals so that Ret wouldn't simply switch to Vengeance? Does that even make sense to you? If they didn't want Ret using Vengenance, they would have nerfed it and left the other three seals alone. Three seals that Ret don't bother using the vast majority of the time.


You missed step 1 there, they were nerfing SoC regardless. So, they had to nerf the rest so that they weren't suddenly better than SoC. I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but this definitely did happen with SoR pre TBC and SoV early on in this current beta.

I doubt all of these changes are because of ret, but clearly many are.
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:59 am

Grimmal wrote:The implication is there otherwise a longtime Ret Paladin like Proudfoot wouldn't have felt the same urge to speak up about it many pages ago.


Mostly because you insisted it was there in the first place, yes.

Q
If Sheath is the problem, then they should be fixing Sheath.


"Should do" and "actually do" are different things. You should know that, yet you act as if you don't.

They nerfed all of the seals so that Ret wouldn't simply switch to Vengeance? Does that even make sense to you?


Newsflash: They did it before. If you really are in the beta as you claim, why don't you know that?

Again, you confuse what they SHOULD do with what they DID do. Just because something is the proper choice does not mean it is done.

The proper choice is to stop overfishing the oceans. We still overfish them like crazy. We should stop, yet we don't.

Again, the damage on the other three seals is so sad in comparison to even the nerfed Command/Blood that a Ret Paladin wouldn't have bothered.


Well, that is incorrect. This is because of how Sheath of Light makes AP scale, especially with raidbuffs.

So again I say, there must be a reason more than Ret.


So, your argument boils down to naive assumptions. That does not make a proper argument, because in real life, best choices are not always taken, for example due to incompetence, ignorance, or too much effort required.

Just because Blizzard does something does not mean the way it was done was the best way. Chances are, it just was the way requiring the least effort.
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Postby Fionneous » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:00 am

It's a matter of unnecessary semantics to argue over whether or not the blame belongs to "Blizzard," "the devs," "GC," "Ret pallies," or "Retribution."

The bottom line remains the same:

There has been an across the board nerf to paladins as a whole that seems hard to understand in any terms other than an attempt to balance Retribution with other dps specs.
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Postby tbolt » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:29 am

As much as I feel for the Ret pallies out there, I'm more concerned for us prot pallies and our threat. As it was our threat wasn't the greatest compared to the other tanks and now they do this. At least when we had niches we were the best at something, if our threat starts to dip too then we really are the less advanced version of warriors.
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