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To the ground baby! :D

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Postby Garwin » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:04 pm

I've been pretty dumbfounded having seen the mass changed to judgemens and seals, almost at a loss of what to say regarding it ..

far from surgical it strikes me a global, literally shaving off 4-9% of attack power and spell power coefficients, what on earth prompts this .. when the rest of the class is finally performing to what a lot of people thought was a (finally?) solid position, and the one part of the class that maybe _MAYBE_ needed to be looked at, now receives compounded nerfs through a multitude of burst damage changes, worse these global seal/judgment changes and perhaps cripplingly mana regeneration/sustainability and the bastardisation of a signature move into a warrior clone ability.

as far as I'm concerned they've changed multiple damage sources, within the class, doing what a few friends of mine refer to as broke "the multiplier"

shaving off 5% from 3 sources of damage is not a 15% deduction of damage

I'm desperately hopeing that these global changes with mean that some of the previous changes to ret at the very least will be reverted at a minimum .. making divine storm holy damage again.
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Postby Xequecal » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:01 pm

They wanted PvE DPS to be the same before and after the patch. With Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Judgments getting buffed through Art of War, (+10% damage > +20% crit damage) and Righteous Vengeance going from 225% crit damage on Judgments and DS to 280% crit damage, they nerfed seal damage to make sure the PvE DPS was the same.
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Postby Io.Draco » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:14 pm

How about prot gets some increased damage on hammer of righteous or shield of righteous or smth to make up for the dmg loss we get from coruption nerf
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Postby crabcrouton » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:22 pm

Xequecal wrote:They wanted PvE DPS to be the same before and after the patch. With Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Judgments getting buffed through Art of War, (+10% damage > +20% crit damage) and Righteous Vengeance going from 225% crit damage on Judgments and DS to 280% crit damage, they nerfed seal damage to make sure the PvE DPS was the same.

Maybe, but that doesn't explain the Judgements of the Wise nerf. Or the Judgement of Wisdom nerf.

Both of those nerfs are going to cripple Ret rotations outside of a raid setting because of mana starvation. Dropping abilities from rotations is, by definition, a PvE nerf.
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Postby Levantine » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:24 pm

I have no idea how they managed to rationalise the JotW nerf, personally. How was it OP? NONE of the other melee DPS classes are restricted by mana. (Shaman have Mana Spring, Shamanistic Rage and if they absolutely need it Water Shield)
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Postby Proudfoot » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:18 am

The changes to JotW and JoW are crippling for Ret in PVE and PVP. We cannot sustain a full dps rotation anymore for any length of time. I consider Consecrate an important part of our PVE dps rotation and being forced to drop it is contrary to their stated goal of keeping our PVE dps the SAME while nerfing burst.

In PVP we cannot afford to throw heals or hand spells and maintain dps for long enough to wear down our target. Mana burns will destroy us in PVP and make us completely useless (again). Removing our burst and the ability to sustain damage means we can't kill someone quickly OR over time. We can't dps for long and we can't kill quickly... how does this sound balanced?

I'm fairly certain that without burst, interupts, or healing debuffs we have no way to put pressure on an opposing arena team and they can easily heal through our damage.

Really the JotW nerf is the HUGE issue here. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bring JotW back to 25% base mana.
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:22 am

BC's back again.

What troubles me is the lack of communication from GC regarding those nerfs that do not impact retribution but all the paladins.

Meanwhile, we still have pending issues - for prot, dps while not tanking, another single target taunt, fear breaking abilities and so on.

What really suck is how fast Blizard turns down the paladin - divine storm being physical already in live - while they do take their time buffing them - deep wounds effect, HotR and so on.

I whished I keept on leveling my warrior instead of doing achievments.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:51 am

Katamai wrote:
Warcraft wrote:Yes, I'm calling being able to use abilities regardless of what weapon you have equipped flexibility.

Your suggestion is no different from what Blizzard has done. Nerfing EVERYONE to fix one tree.

You are just doing it in a way that seems to fit your own play style better. Still no regard for others.

No need to make dumbass comments just because somebody shot down your crappy suggestion.


Err.... you're one of those "I WANT TO BE BEST AT EVERYTHING!!!!" types, aren't you?

As prot you shouldn't even have SoC.
As holy you shouldn't even have SoC.
WHY would you care if SoC was 2H seal?

SoB has very, very limited use for prot and even less (if any) for holy. Why would you care if it was 2H seal? You're not going to use it for soloing, raiding or well... almost anything so how does this affect you?

Don't make dumbass comments and expect others to agree with you and give you a pat on the back. Oh and "because it suits your playstyle comment"... priceless! I hope i'm not the only enjoying the irony in your statement ;)


No, I have to agree with Warcraft here. The solution presented was simple, but far from elegant. It was in fact a nerf to flexibility for the sake of "not having to balance shit".

As much as I hate to admit it, the solution from back in the day of using max(AP, SP) for the damage coefficient may actually be the most elegant possibility.

What would be really elegant is if they made our heals scale with AP, did away with the conversion to SP talents entirely, and then removed healing plate from the game. And then gave Holy some sort of AP or Armor -> Int talent around tier 4 or 5. That would be awesome.
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Postby Sunstrider » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:23 am

I'm gonna try to be optimistic here. I am hoping this is more of a stopgap to make lvl 70 pvp more balanced and that at 80 or when the arenas close down for a bit with the launch of wotlk, that the dmg will be restored. Much like how Titan's grip went from 15% to them consider 12% to the currently mentioned 5%.
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Postby Proudfoot » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:49 am

Sabindeus wrote:As much as I hate to admit it, the solution from back in the day of using max(AP, SP) for the damage coefficient may actually be the most elegant possibility.


This would work wonderfully imo.

What would be really elegant is if they made our heals scale with AP, did away with the conversion to SP talents entirely, and then removed healing plate from the game. And then gave Holy some sort of AP or Armor -> Int talent around tier 4 or 5. That would be awesome.


Revolutionary and quite possibly genius. While they are at it why can't we get Holy more interested in Melee combat?
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:01 am

:
They wanted PvE DPS to be the same before and after the patch.


Except that it is much lower now.
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Postby tbolt » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:37 am

Sunstrider wrote:I'm gonna try to be optimistic here. I am hoping this is more of a stopgap to make lvl 70 pvp more balanced and that at 80 or when the arenas close down for a bit with the launch of wotlk, that the dmg will be restored. Much like how Titan's grip went from 15% to them consider 12% to the currently mentioned 5%.


Titan's grip got a buff 'cause they decreased the reduced chance to hit, so warrior dps got better while ret dps took a hit. The geared warriors that I raid with were already topping damage in many cases so I don't know why they needed another boost. In fact the last kara I did the warrior and mage were the only ones who were actually chasing me on the threat while the rest were ways back.

I also love Sabindeus' idea about all paladins scaling with AP, and one that I have thought of too, afterall we are freakin holy warriors not spell casters in plate.
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Re: To the ground baby! :D

Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:56 am

Katamai wrote:
fiorina wrote::<

I do... but.. ...this November it will be 4 years of playing WoW. So hard to find motivation to kill 100k bears to level up another char, just because Blizzard is out of ideas, time or will for paladin.


Wintersaber, Deatcharger (even though it's stupidly easy to get it now, GJ Blizz), exalted with zillion factions, 55 mounts, 57 pets, almost 4 years of memories, bunch of old gear (T0 ftw!)... i thought about lvling a warrior... but i'd rather die than get all this again :/

Same thing, just, i got 3 chars with exhalted with all tbc factions :\
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby ScribeShanky » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:46 am

Some of you are acting like the sky is falling-- though, this is a Katamai thread, after all.

Ret needed a nerf. And as far as tanking is concerned, seals aren't really a good chunk of our TPS anyway. Just be glad we still deal Holy damage.
I just love it when a good keikaku comes together.
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Postby Belarkan » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:50 am

ScribeShanky wrote:Some of you are acting like the sky is falling-- though, this is a Katamai thread, after all.

Ret needed a nerf. And as far as tanking is concerned, seals aren't really a good chunk of our TPS anyway. Just be glad we still deal Holy damage.


Actually, this remainds me too much of BC.
I wouldn't call BC experience good for paladins. I just raided 7 months due to the "holy is the only paladin tree" factor.
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