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Postby PsiVen » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:10 pm

Majiben wrote:Sorry to bug you again but the new CS gylph is a 20% reduction in it's mana cost. Should be close to required now.


Eh, I'm not seeing that at all. Mana savings will only be used on Consecration and non-damaging abilities, unless we get shafted by a mana burn fight. It certainly won't see use in PvP.

WTB a Replenishment mechanic that isn't terrible.
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:19 pm

PsiVen wrote:
Majiben wrote:Sorry to bug you again but the new CS gylph is a 20% reduction in it's mana cost. Should be close to required now.


Eh, I'm not seeing that at all. Mana savings will only be used on Consecration and non-damaging abilities, unless we get shafted by a mana burn fight. It certainly won't see use in PvP.

WTB a Replenishment mechanic that isn't terrible.
I was speaking of PvE. With mana being tighter cheaper spells mean more consecrates throw in and/or FoL being thrown out.

Also what glyphs do you see ret taking over the CS one at 80? I see HoJ and SoC being required for PVP but that last slot is a toss up between CS, judgements and maybe cleansing. PVE I can't imagine ret not taking the new CS glyph.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:58 pm

Grimmal wrote:To clarify what I meant, it's not the fault of the Ret Players out there and for everybody screaming that it's the fault of Ret that is how you are coming off.

The people who have played Ret for years wanted to be balanced, not to unbalanced the entire class system. My point was that if you want to blame anybody then quit saying it's because of Ret Paladins and say that it's because of Blizzard themselves apparently not knowing how to fix the situation that they themselves have caused.

As for the damage nerfs, there is no reason to have nerfed Wisdom/Light/Right unless they felt that Prot Paladins were doing to much damage as well. Vengeance/Blood/Command I can understand being blamed on Ret only, but does anybody really think those other three were going to become the mainstay of Ret even with the new nerfed coefficients? Even with Sheath of Light?

Either they felt that Prot (obviously not Holy as they just continue to take it...) was doing more damage than they intended, or they just have no clue what they are doing with this change.


I really doubt anyone is actually blaming the person at home playing on a ret pally for these changes. I know the wording comes off that way, but obviously it's really just an assumption that they are nerfing our damage because our damage spec is doing too much. It's not like folks expected ret pallys to sand bag it so we wouldn't get nerfed.

For the record, holy dps is atrocious, and prot pallys are not anywhere close to the highest DPS tank at 80. We may be the highest threat tank, but if this is the solution, that's a pretty poor and pretty lazy effort to adjust it.

Most of these nerfs won't matter all that much for prot, but some do seem very odd. If they are nerfing us so that they can add an 11 point talent that boosts dps, that doesn't really make any sense. Besides, if our 11 point talent is about threat, then they are already off the mark a bit.

I realize GC has said if there's a problem they will fix it. What bothers me about that, is if threat isn't a big deal anymore (which I think is a bad idea, but that is not for this thread) then these nerfs will likely not cause a problem and won't be fixed. JoV at level 80, with 5 talent points and a glyph improving it is already pretty bad. It does less than it did at 70 pre 3.0. That's not fun, now nerfing the seal is even less fun, hurts the ability to pvp, hurts the ability to grind, and it hurts the ability to DPS in a raid when your mob dies. All of that seems to be the opposite of everything we've heard thus far. Worse, this all comes seemingly from no where, and for no reason. So I can understand the anger, hopefully they have more up their sleeve that we havent seen yet.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:00 pm

Majiben wrote:
PsiVen wrote:
Majiben wrote:Sorry to bug you again but the new CS gylph is a 20% reduction in it's mana cost. Should be close to required now.


Eh, I'm not seeing that at all. Mana savings will only be used on Consecration and non-damaging abilities, unless we get shafted by a mana burn fight. It certainly won't see use in PvP.

WTB a Replenishment mechanic that isn't terrible.
I was speaking of PvE. With mana being tighter cheaper spells mean more consecrates throw in and/or FoL being thrown out.

Also what glyphs do you see ret taking over the CS one at 80? I see HoJ and SoC being required for PVP but that last slot is a toss up between CS, judgements and maybe cleansing. PVE I can't imagine ret not taking the new CS glyph.


Just because this glyph isn't worse than other bad glyphs doesn't mean it was a good change. Mana, even for consecrates and FoLs isn't a problem unless you are getting burned. Honestly, with divine plea, you have more than you can use.

I don't think they've unveiled all the glyphs yet though.
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Postby Grimmal » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:43 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I really doubt anyone is actually blaming the person at home playing on a ret pally for these changes. I know the wording comes off that way, but obviously it's really just an assumption that they are nerfing our damage because our damage spec is doing too much. It's not like folks expected ret pallys to sand bag it so we wouldn't get nerfed.


Not everybody perhaps, but just look in this thread and you can tell that some are. Add in the FotM type comments and the venom being spewed by a few posters and it comes off that way. At the very least it's so implied that I'm not the only one in this thread to have taken it that way.

For the record, holy dps is atrocious, and prot pallys are not anywhere close to the highest DPS tank at 80. We may be the highest threat tank, but if this is the solution, that's a pretty poor and pretty lazy effort to adjust it.


Believe me, I'm not trying to claim that Holy or Prot is doing to much damage. I know for a fact that Holy is now completely horribad at dps after having tried it earlier. And Prot while putting up much better numbers, doesn't compare to the other tanks imo.

But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to nerf Wisdom/Light/Righteous unless somehow Blizzard thought either of those two specs were in fact doing to much dps. Ret possibly might use one of those seals situationally, but they would never be part of their rotation and there was no reason to nerf them due to Ret.

---

The fact is that Ret is getting blamed for anything and everything atm it seems when it simply isn't the case. The only explanation to these changes is that somehow Blizzard feels the entire class is doing to much damage. That, or they just randomly made some changes to see how they would feel...

All I'm saying is that people need to quit blaming a spec (be they blaming the spec or the players) and start blaming Blizzard. 17 days left now or not, it's a joke that they are still nerfing our numbers with every single push. Especially when we already are doing less than others.
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Postby Mithos » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:07 pm

Meh wish they would leave HoW at 35%, 20% is too low for any kind of solo play, most of the damage is wasted. And by the time the 20% level is reached and your latency activates HoW, if you got a GCD up you won't even have a chance to throw it in a 5 man :\.
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Postby Macha » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:25 pm

Grimmal wrote:To clarify what I meant, it's not the fault of the Ret Players out there and for everybody screaming that it's the fault of Ret that is how you are coming off.


Except that nobody was doing that, and you are just overreacting by far. Otherwise, you should be able to show where someone actually said that Ret Paladin players directly wanted this because...nobody said that. People did say that the cause is the Retribution Paladin, which is, well, a fact.

Quite simply, making up "venom" and strawmen does not make you look smart, and does not make your arguments work. The fact is still that Sheath of Light is the problem, and has so far caused repeated nerfs to seals across the board.

As we expected a long time ago.

The only explanation to these changes


Wrong. The only explaination to these changes is that Ret is doing too much damage, and that they nerfed all seals to ensure that Ret does not switch to Vengeance/Corruption again.

If you actually look at the beta and the patches instead of making things up and screaming that other people who disagree are evil meanies who just hate ret, you will notice that they did this before for the same reason. If they only nerfed blood/command, Retri Paladins would have used other seals. It's really that simple.
Coming here and pretending this isn't the case does not work. We already know better.

or they just have no clue what they are doing with this change.


More this than the other.

You will be able to maintain a basic damage cycle fairly happily in a raid environment. However you won't be able to throw out many consecrates,


Except that consecration is already among the best single target attacks, and that without using it, Ret DPS is completely horrible.

Being only able to maintain a rotation that does not enough damage is not balanced.

Your conclusion is typical napkin math and ignores ingame reality - which is that Retribution Paladins have to use consecration to do competitve DPS. The point of a damage cycle is not to use random abilities for the sake of fluffy bunnies, but to do competitive dps.

Any damage cycle failing to do competitive dps is a bad damage cycle.
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Postby Girard » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:09 am

Kysen wrote:Its ironic over the whole of beta the most changes happen in the last few weeks. Ret was totally fine all those months in beta even to the point of hitting live. Within 24hrs hotfixes? If they wanted to wildly change talents they should have experimented ages ago, seems people are still testing on live.

This is TBC all over again. 18 days.

Ret was not fine, GC and other Devs said repeatedly that Ret was bugged, and was in need of being tuned down in order to bring them into line. This should not come as a suprise to anyone that the nerfs happened.. we all knew they were coming, they even said they were and why. They were untouched until now due to resolving several game bugs that could've artificially been inflating their damage output. Said bugs are now fixed, so the balancing can begin in earnest.

Are some of them more extreme than expected, yus. But they aren't out of place.

What has me confused is.. prior to this build, 1str = 1 sp co-efficient wise, but now 1 sp is slightly more than 1 str. (15% ap vs 8.8% as opposed to the original 19.2% vs 9.6%). Is this to take into account Kings/Divine Strength's scaling on the attribute?
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:12 am

Girard wrote:Ret was not fine, GC and other Devs said repeatedly that Ret was bugged, and was in need of being tuned down in order to bring them into line.


Any reference you have seen to ret related bugs in comments made by GC was the 2H Spec bug that I'm sure people here are familiar with that let you stack % damage by equipping and unequipping your weapon.

Now that that bug is fixed, they said they were going to finally be able to balance damage.
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:22 am

Ok here's what I think.

The Seal/Judgement damage changes I can accept as normal fluctuations of "how much damage should people be doing in PVP/Raid/etc." situations.

The burst changes I can accept as the issue of "burst damage while stunned" was considered to be overwhelming, and they decided to tune it by lowering burst damage while buffing sustained damage.

I have a huge problem with the Judgements of the Wise nerf and the S/J of Light/Wisdom nerfs.

Basically, as Lore said a few weeks ago with regards to Ret PVP, the strength of the spec was being able to DPS well, provide a good amount of stun/control with HoJ and Repentence, and then turn around and throw significant heals and support with our various Hands/Cleanse/etc. He said this would work well in a 2 DPS team. I was about ready to believe that. I was firmly in the camp of "without burst damage we have nothing", but I was coming to think that maybe, just maybe, all of that healing and anti-CC power we have MIGHT make up for it.

But apparently that's not meant to be, as evidenced by the JotW nerf.

In a raid, our mana will be fine. With all the various sources that provide mana back, likw JoW, Mana Spring, BoW, Replenishment, Water Elemental, Spiritual Attunement, etc. etc., we're not going to go OOM quickly DPSing and I think that might even include being able to consecrate a bunch. But in PVP this means we will be practically worthless aside from mediocre sustained damage. Mana is not only a concern now, but a huge limitation on our abilities. Now we have to choose between doing damage for a few seconds or healing a couple of times before we RUN OUT OF MANA AND DIE, rather than simply having to focus on one or the other at any given time. It's absurd.

Furthermore, the nerf to Wisdom/Light just removes even more of a Paladin's utility in PvE and sustainability while soloing. It's completely unwarranted. Judgement of Light used to be great additional healing throughput for the AoE starved Holy Paladin, and now it's laughable.

Bottom line, this is a lot of bullshit. 3.1 better be kind to us.

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Postby Girard » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:23 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Girard wrote:Ret was not fine, GC and other Devs said repeatedly that Ret was bugged, and was in need of being tuned down in order to bring them into line.


Any reference you have seen to ret related bugs in comments made by GC was the 2H Spec bug that I'm sure people here are familiar with that let you stack % damage by equipping and unequipping your weapon.

Now that that bug is fixed, they said they were going to finally be able to balance damage.

Which is what they are doing now, albeit with a heavy hand.
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Postby Passionario » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:29 am

*places his hand on the /reroll button and waits to see if these changes make it to live*
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Postby halabar » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:30 am

As it stands now, I'm going to be farming badges and holding them until this hits live. If it's as bad for solo as some are saying, then I'll go back prot. Mana seems to be the key issue.

almost 100 badges... waiting on either the Stoic Guardian chest, or the dps plate legs... :wink:
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Postby Sabindeus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:30 am

Girard wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Girard wrote:Ret was not fine, GC and other Devs said repeatedly that Ret was bugged, and was in need of being tuned down in order to bring them into line.


Any reference you have seen to ret related bugs in comments made by GC was the 2H Spec bug that I'm sure people here are familiar with that let you stack % damage by equipping and unequipping your weapon.

Now that that bug is fixed, they said they were going to finally be able to balance damage.

Which is what they are doing now, albeit with a heavy hand.


Yes. I was trying to clear up what you said about GC saying that the damage was bugged and needed to be balanced. He never said that.

That's mostly why I am surprised right now at all these changes. GC didn't say that Ret's damage was too high. At all. In his post about Ret, he said that the BURST it was capable of while stunned was a bit overwhelming, and that the sustained damage was in fact FINE.

Ghostcrawler wrote:As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play. :)


This statement right here is why I am very confused by the Seal/Judgement damage nerfs, on top of all these other little surprises such as the JotW nerf and the Wisdom/Light nerf. Where the hell did this come from? Didn't you just say you were happy with our damage? What gives???
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Postby halabar » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:32 am

Passionario wrote:*places his hand on the /reroll button and waits to see if these changes make it to live*


meh... it might suck for a while, but it really doesn't hurt prot that bad. Just need to AOE level and instance. Questing may suck again.

But my pally can be my mining slave if worst comes to worst.
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