Seal nerf=Conviction over SotP at 80?

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Seal nerf=Conviction over SotP at 80?

Postby tbolt » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:06 pm

Not sure if this is more talent discussion or Wotlk but here goes. According to what I read here conviction was less threat on a per point basis than SotP at 80, before the recent nerfs to seals/judgements. However now that our coefficients have been nerfed, should we be taking the points out of SotP and putting it in conviction?

Since SotP is a percentage increase to our seal damage and that damage has been lowered, we're getting a smaller benefit out of the 5 talent points. I have a feeling conviction is going to be more useful now since the crit affects many of our abilities but I don't have the numbers to back it up. Anyone with beta access care to look into this?

Edit: I was thinking of
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZ0xVA0uGteIRGovo
before and after the nerfs this
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0uGteIRGovo0x
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:19 pm

The initial math was done when judgements were hitting pretty hard, and even then it was pretty close. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see conviction doing more threat now.
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Postby PsiVen » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:52 pm

The gross nerfs will most likely make judgement our lowest priority TPS skill, which sucks for our rotations.
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Postby Eender » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:34 am

I was toying around with talents prior to the nurf because I was already concerned with TPS output and what is actually needed for raiding. I don't think that paladins will need JoJ in a 25 man. What I am toying with is this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0uGteIRGovo0x

This build still keeps survivability while increasing total damage by a bit. What you think?
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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:44 am

This talent is entirely worthless now.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:48 am

Yea, i'm definitively going for Convinction and maybe PoJ with the recent nerf.
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Postby Kellern » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:53 am

yay for an excuse to get PoJ
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Postby Helpunot » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:43 pm

What of after the nerf it is more beneficial for us to take the talent SotP?

And no, I do not like the idea of having to take a talent now because they screwed us. But will 15% damage increase in SoV ticks, and judgements be better than 5% crit overall?
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Postby Danth » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:59 pm

Seals of the Pure still has the advantages of reliability and no pre-requisite points required in an 'off' tree. Reaching Conviction requires about four points in Retribution which are effectively wasted some of the time (all of the time if you happen to have a Retribution Paladin around consistently). Conviction is likely better than Seals of the Pure if you're going at least 10 into Retribution anyway, but I don't think I'd move down the tree *just* for it. Otherwise, you're not comparing 5 vs 5 talent points so much as 5 vs 9 points (Much as Blessing of Kings used to be considered an '11 point' talent by Holy or Retribution Paladins). As with Blessing of Kings, some folks will make better use of those points than others.

Conviction indisputably wins out for those Paladins who prefer to heal as their off-role as opposed to trying to deal damage.

From my perspective, neither of those talents look all that good. I view them more as marginally useful fluff in which to dump excess points as opposed to something I particularly look forward to.

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Postby Macha » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:05 pm

Helpunot wrote:What of after the nerf it is more beneficial for us to take the talent SotP?

And no, I do not like the idea of having to take a talent now because they screwed us. But will 15% damage increase in SoV ticks, and judgements be better than 5% crit overall?
#

Doubt it - Seals and Judgements are a rather small part of our aggro now - 5% on every other part of our aggro seems to be a lot bigger now. In my case, Holy Vengeance is barely 14% of my single target aggro. Judgement of Vengeance 9% or so. That's not even 25% of the aggro. This is BEFORE ShoR

In other words, it's already better to get Conviction without ShoR, albeit by a little bit.
With ShoR AND the seal nerfs? Yeah, no contest.

Edit: I am going to get 3 points conviction and 2 points PoJ. Runspeed is nice. It's marginal point choice anyway.
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Postby tbolt » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:28 pm

Danth wrote:Seals of the Pure still has the advantages of reliability and no pre-requisite points required in an 'off' tree. Reaching Conviction requires about four points in Retribution which are effectively wasted some of the time (all of the time if you happen to have a Retribution Paladin around consistently). Conviction is likely better than Seals of the Pure if you're going at least 10 into Retribution anyway, but I don't think I'd move down the tree *just* for it. Otherwise, you're not comparing 5 vs 5 talent points so much as 5 vs 9 points (Much as Blessing of Kings used to be considered an '11 point' talent by Holy or Retribution Paladins). As with Blessing of Kings, some folks will make better use of those points than others.

Conviction indisputably wins out for those Paladins who prefer to heal as their off-role as opposed to trying to deal damage.

From my perspective, neither of those talents look all that good. I view them more as marginally useful fluff in which to dump excess points as opposed to something I particularly look forward to.

Danth


Well if you look at the build I linked there really isn't much left to pick up in the prot tree after the 56 points. That means that you have to go to to ret or holy unless you're picking up kings.

SotP may be reliable but it's not good since seal damage is nerfed, therefore you're increasing your damage by 15% of a lower number. Also it only affects seals and nothing else. Also if you are picking up conviction you do have to put in 4 more points to get to it, but since our seal/judge of wisdom got nerfed too I think Benediction is even more useful now for our mana. So four points there isn't exactly a waste. Conviction will increase the crit chance of judges, exorcism, Hammer of wrath, HotR, ShoR, and holy wrath as far as I know. All spells that will crit for a lot more than the damage of seal of Veng + SotP.
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Postby Arees » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:05 pm

I know there is still time for this to change, but currently looking at these changes I will pick up conviction. I will be doing mostly 10 man raids where there may or may not be a ret pally to put up the 3% crit, so it will probably only be wasted some of the time. I'm sitting at 13% crit on live from just talents and kings (and agil from leg enchant and ring enchants, but I don't know how much that contributes), and that number probably wont change at 80. So that thats 13 + 3 + 5 = 21 percent crit just from talents, not to mention several other classes bring a +5% crit (druids & dps warriors... any others?). This will put us around 25% crit.

I know a bunch of our attacks can crit, but which ones cant? I know the dot from SoV can't. Consecrate cant. Is there anything else we will use in our normal rotation that can't crit? Having most of our attacks be at a 25% crit chance seems a lot better than a small increase of a small number...
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Postby Khayne » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Danth wrote:Seals of the Pure still has the advantages of reliability and no pre-requisite points required in an 'off' tree. Reaching Conviction requires about four points in Retribution which are effectively wasted some of the time (all of the time if you happen to have a Retribution Paladin around consistently).


Actually if the presence of ret paladin is consistent, you dont have 4 useless points.

If you allways got Ret paladin, he grabs kings and buffs that on all, you grab imp BoM. Ret kings all, you Sanc tanks and BoM melee.

If you never got ret paladin, you´ll give crit to all instead.

Or grab some mana savings for soloing thanks to our new nerfs.
Last edited by Khayne on Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:43 pm

Actually, if you got a high enough DPS weapon or if you got you BV high enough the Conviction was already overtaking SotP...before the last nerf...

Now, its a no brainer...

The fact is, that Conviction fits right in with our new talents fairly well, and the more they nerf seal and judgement damage, the better it looks

Sad thing is that the Glyph of Judgement is looking worse and worse...
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:52 pm

Kellern wrote:yay for an excuse to get PoJ


Hooraj.

And given the ret paladin nerfs, their spot in a raid is not guaranteed, so you might as well have Heart of the Crusader for the raid.
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