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Postby Harlequina » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:01 am

Havn wrote:To be honest most of what people call FOTM ret pallys are actually our down trodden holy brothers. They have toiled away being forced into the niche of pocket healer for so long that when they finally got warrior type pvp dps they jumped at the chance to play.

These paladins probably had a nice stock pile of great gear which to switch over. The reason you see so many paladins out there is because its new for the class to be able to kick the crap out of things. Warriors have been able to do it for awhile so it isnt new to them.

So we see all the holy paladins out there having fun and they are wrecking the battle grounds. I honestly think that if 2 arms warriors rolled up on me I would die just as fast as if 2 ret pallys rolled up on me.

They most likely needed a small nerf but i do not think they were as far out of line as most people think they were. It was the fact that there were just so many people playing ret in the bgs.

People were use to dying to arms warriors. Getting wrecked by ret is new and they complained.


Pretty much this. :p

But 'ell I kicked ass (in battlegrounds) before the patch as ret! No one complained... But maybe it was because I was the only retri in the battleground haahaa.
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Postby Tev » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:02 am

Macha wrote:
A few days ago people were saying things like "I feel so OP",


Yes, because threat is meaningless overall. We still have the worst threat and worst aggro of all tanks at 80, it just feels OP because no DPS can pull aggro.

Perspective. Pretending to surprised to "pass a mage" in a damage meter shows just that people are pretty inexperienced. I've passed mages in damage meters since forever. It is natural when you are holding things and mages have to singletarget something else first. Like, oh, in almost every trash pack with casters. Some mages singletarget, others aoe nuke. The singletarget people fall behind.

So many people came to Paladins way too late and completely lack experience of the class, else you'd know that, not to mention that it is basic math.
We're nowhere near anyones dps if everyone else a)plays properly and
B)CAN do so to begin with at the start of the fight.

try playing with the new changes and see if you notice any real difference with game play.


Done. I need to drink after 3 mobs now, which now take very long to kill. That is without using consecration(one to two mob drinking). Mana gain is really horrible now unless one pulls many enemies. Our soloing got pretty much gutted until 75. The last seal nerf hit it bad already.

At 80, it's still slow as heck, slower than my prot warrior at 70.

Let me guess: No beta account? It shows.

and stop posting on here.


How about if talking and discussing BETA content is too much for you, YOU stop posting on here? A beta is not there to play it, have fun, and wait and see. A beta is there to play it, find mistakes, discuss them, and then report them.
This is not a difficult concept, please understand it and otherwise stop whining that people treat a beta like an actual beta.


Amen. I Can't stand the people who jump on the PTR and act like they know everything that is Beta.
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Postby guillex » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:05 am

Macha wrote:
and stop posting on here.


How about if talking and discussing BETA content is too much for you, YOU stop posting on here? A beta is not there to play it, have fun, and wait and see. A beta is there to play it, find mistakes, discuss them, and then report them.
This is not a difficult concept, please understand it and otherwise stop whining that people treat a beta like an actual beta.


As I haven't logged into Beta in a while, I do TRUST and hope that this has been brought up in the beta forums... While posting here about beta builds is fine and dandy, it does create more feed for the Chicken Little Syndrome.

That's it. I don't like the flaming that's going on, but it's inevitable with something like this.
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Postby Karock » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:07 am

The problems aren't damage seal coefficients (though that IS a problem for non-ret people).

The problem for prot in this, IMO, is the nerf to Seal/Judgment of Wisdom.

The problem for ret is that the old JotW was only a little bit over "just enough" for their base damage rotation. It was enough that you could recover from a holy light or two after a bit or could mix in some FoL (you know... that whole "Art of War" thing?) without going oom. This much of a nerf is going to mean they can't even do their normal threat rotation in PvE raiding content (at least without excessive raid damage).
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Postby Macha » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:29 am

o TRUST and hope that this has been brought up in the beta forums...


Beta forums are down atm, and if you can post, you'll see it turned into not a helpful place at all - it's almost as trolled as life forums are.

GC reads this forum, so discussing things here help - and usually is more useful than in the beta forum, sadly. The only bad thing here is a)"Waah I quit" people and b)"Waah how dare you complain? QQ" trolls.

That alone makes this forum far more useful to actually *discuss* things and come to a conclusion what our problems really are. A single tester saying something does not mean it is true, but several people with different viewpoints coming to the same conclusion does hint at something.

However, dismissive "shut up and qq" posters are not helpful in the slightest. Nor are people without beta accounts spewing false information.
And yes: Nor are "I throw my toys down and quit" posts.

The problem for prot in this, IMO, is the nerf to Seal/Judgment of Wisdom.


Yes. THIS is gutting my leveling as prot. I actually get mana issues now - huge ones - since mass pulling is not an option for 90% of all quests. This is a direct result of the seal nerf. Leveling as prot until 75 is a huge pain in the butt now. No damage, no mana. After 75 you at least do damage.


Quite simple, Paladins still suffer from various flaws. Blizzard repeated their mistake of dealing with the class with the biggest issues last. For most of the beta, our Protection tree actually did not offer any mitigation upgrade - in fact, one was taken away, most people just didn't notice because it wasn't visible in the talent tree. In reality, what 3.0 did was removing "THis ability also makes it nigh-impossible to ever get a 150% damage crushing blow, something that will hit other tanks" from Holy Shield.
If that had actually been written in the talent tree, and was removed in 3.0, most of us here would have been screaming bloody murder. It wasn't, so we were silent, yet our biggest advantage evaporated. It was our selling point in sunwell. "Sure, the twins hit me for a little bit more, BUT I can guarantee NEVER to get gibbed by a crushing blow"
In total, our tree actually was *worse* until this very beta build we can test now. Remember how long the beta went? All we got was threat, more than anyone ever asked for. And, in a supreme display of their complete ignorance of what makes us tick, GC actually said that removing crushings was an advantage for Paladins. This comment really showed how much attention the developers had been paying to Protection Paladins.

It's funny, warriors now have the role we had in sunwell. Now WE are the ones taking slightly less damage on average, but more dangerous spikes. The roles reversed.


Then there is blizzards design goal, of tanks doing more damage. And yet, we have the highest aggro-per-damage coefficient, which means we cannot do as much damage as the other tanks. Blizzard has not even touched this issue.

Singletarget taunt? Two blessings in a tree? Silence? Manaburn? These issues were not even addressed, or denied because "it makes tanks too similar" - while other tanks did get ranged taunts, AOE Aggro, and the like.

This beta really didn't go well. Not because we didn't get all we wanted - that's okay. No, it is because what we got was poorly thought out from the start, and no attempts are done to fix us.

Sheath of Light? Still unchanged, all that is changed are seals, which are nerfed again and again.
Aggro coefficients? Still there. Unchanged, not even touched. And meanwhile, our damage drops more and more - the stated goal of "tanks having more fun while doing damage" is eroding.
Then there's short mitigation cooldowns. I remember GC telling warriors that "posting a button on CD isn't fun, making decisions is". He was correct. Yet, we still are left with this.

Currently, their design goals for paladins are in ruins, and there's really no time left to tackle it anymore. If they change things now, they will not be tested.

That is what annoys many of us. It's not that we are weaker as such: It is that Blizzard contradicts their own stated goals for us. We'll still be able to tank, we could just be so much more effective and fun, like the other tanks. If only we had been given the same amount of attention.
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Postby Galoheart » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:29 am

Guillex wrote:
Macha wrote:
and stop posting on here.


How about if talking and discussing BETA content is too much for you, YOU stop posting on here? A beta is not there to play it, have fun, and wait and see. A beta is there to play it, find mistakes, discuss them, and then report them.
This is not a difficult concept, please understand it and otherwise stop whining that people treat a beta like an actual beta.


As I haven't logged into Beta in a while, I do TRUST and hope that this has been brought up in the beta forums... While posting here about beta builds is fine and dandy, it does create more feed for the Chicken Little Syndrome.

That's it. I don't like the flaming that's going on, but it's inevitable with something like this.



I've quit playing Beta as well after being at 80 a while now after leveling as Protect. Haven't played Beta in weeks now either. Having to relevel as Protec with the Seal and Judgement changes is going to be rather tough fight.
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Postby guillex » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:09 am

Macha wrote:
o TRUST and hope that this has been brought up in the beta forums...


Beta forums are down atm, and if you can post, you'll see it turned into not a helpful place at all - it's almost as trolled as life forums are.

GC reads this forum, so discussing things here help - and usually is more useful than in the beta forum, sadly. The only bad thing here is a)"Waah I quit" people and b)"Waah how dare you complain? QQ" trolls.

That alone makes this forum far more useful to actually *discuss* things and come to a conclusion what our problems really are. A single tester saying something does not mean it is true, but several people with different viewpoints coming to the same conclusion does hint at something.

However, dismissive "shut up and qq" posters are not helpful in the slightest. Nor are people without beta accounts spewing false information.
And yes: Nor are "I throw my toys down and quit" posts.


Just as long as you realise that I'm not telling you either of those things, nor am I saying that these posts SHOULDN'T be discussed here. I'm all for healthy discussion ... But not discussion that degenerates into what you're describing.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:27 am

So I logged into the Beta and spent the better part of the night trying out the changes on my 77 tankadin both solo and in a group.

Biggest group change: the JoW is noticable by my group members. It's 50% less than what they're used to. Then again, there's the possibility of bias since I asked them to keep an eye on their mana bars giving them a placebo effect, but I doubt it; low mana is low mana.

Seal damage is lower than the rest of my abilities overall. Previously, Seals of the Pure came out to be ~5% increase overall, including the Glyph of Judgement. Now it's closer to 4%, and 3.7% without the Glyph. 5 talent points for 3.7% is... underwhelming.

Biggest solo change: I can't keep up my rotation in solo anymore with anything less than 4 mobs. Even with 3, I end up with a net loss at the end of the fight... with BoSanct of course. Divine Plea helps here so it's still possible to grind/level. With 1 to 2 mobs at a time though, it's happy hour.

What did I end up doing in response? Use Seal of Wisdom. =/
Give up a damage seal (since I no longer have 5 points in Seals of the Pure and a Glyph there) and use Wisdom to power my rotation. It works but it's, again, underwhelming.

Solo-wise, the Hammer of Wrath change also rears its ugly head. It's about one less HoW I can fit into a killing rotation. My rotation on 1-3 mobs typically don't involve Consecration. I fit Hammer of Wrath into Cons' spot. Before I got ShoR though, its spot is where I would use it, so sub-75 Prot will feel the nerf more.

So to sum up: less damage, mana-starved more often, less helpful to group.

Edited for clarity
Last edited by crabcrouton on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Magnusharkov » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:52 pm

Ok, I decided to look into this Jotw reduction, maths incoming, does this sound about right to other people or am I missing anything?

Divine Storm 12% base mana. Used 6 times per min. 72% base mana per min used.
Crusader Strike 8% base mana. Used 10 times per min. 80% base mana per min used.
Judgement 5% base mana. Used 7.5 times per min. 37.5% base mana per min used.

So using rets basic abilities and assuming perfect use of GCD (which doesnt happen) you will blow through 189.5% base mana per min. With benediction this is reduced to 170.5.
Jotw returns a total of 112.5% base mana per min. Leaving you with a 58% mana deficit.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Base_mana
Paladins at 80 have 4394 base mana. This means that you will be losing 2548 mana per minute just looking at those 3 abilities and jotw.

Divine plea gives you of 25% of your maximum mana per minute. Replenishment gives you 15%. I dont have numbers for your actual mana at 80 but I will guess
Paladins at 70 have just over 80 base intellect, I would guess that at lvl 80 it will be around 110. Int buff gives you +60. Kings gives you +10% of this for 187 intellect which is 2805 mana. With your base mana that would give a mana bar around 7200.

So paladins regen 40% of 7200 per minute through divine plea and replenishment, giving you 2880 mana per minute. Adding all the mana regen abilities together you will GAIN 250 mana per minute just using divine storm, crusader strike and judgement, though of course this is reduced to effectively zero as you have to reseal once every 2 minutes. With judgement of wisdom and spiritual attunement you will gain a bit more on top of this but im not going to model it. Remember there are also things like blessing of wisdom, mana spring and mana tide totem to help you out a little more.

Conclusion
You will be able to maintain a basic damage cycle fairly happily in a raid environment. However you won't be able to throw out many consecrates, heals, holy wrath's, cleanses or exorcisms. You're going to have to be very aware of the abilities you use rather than effectively having an infinite rage bar like you do now. Although having near infinite mana is fun, its not really balanced so im not surprised they changed Jotw, having said that I do think the reduction was a little heavy handed. Going from 33% to 20-25% would be better in my opinion.
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:58 pm

Magnusharkov wrote:Ok, I decided to look into this Jotw reduction, maths incoming, does this sound about right to other people or am I missing anything?

Divine Storm 12% base mana. Used 6 times per min. 72% base mana per min used.
Crusader Strike 8% base mana. Used 10 times per min. 80% base mana per min used.
Judgement 5% base mana. Used 7.5 times per min. 37.5% base mana per min used.

So using rets basic abilities and assuming perfect use of GCD (which doesnt happen) you will blow through 189.5% base mana per min. With benediction this is reduced to 170.5.
Jotw returns a total of 112.5% base mana per min. Leaving you with a 58% mana deficit.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Base_mana
Paladins at 80 have 4394 base mana. This means that you will be losing 2548 mana per minute just looking at those 3 abilities and jotw.

Divine plea gives you of 25% of your maximum mana per minute. Replenishment gives you 15%. I dont have numbers for your actual mana at 80 but I will guess
Paladins at 70 have just over 80 base intellect, I would guess that at lvl 80 it will be around 110. Int buff gives you +60. Kings gives you +10% of this for 187 intellect which is 2805 mana. With your base mana that would give a mana bar around 7200.

So paladins regen 40% of 7200 per minute through divine plea and replenishment, giving you 2880 mana per minute. Adding all the mana regen abilities together you will GAIN 250 mana per minute just using divine storm, crusader strike and judgement, though of course this is reduced to effectively zero as you have to reseal once every 2 minutes. With judgement of wisdom and spiritual attunement you will gain a bit more on top of this but im not going to model it. Remember there are also things like blessing of wisdom, mana spring and mana tide totem to help you out a little more.

Conclusion
You will be able to maintain a basic damage cycle fairly happily in a raid environment. However you won't be able to throw out many consecrates, heals, holy wrath's, cleanses or exorcisms. You're going to have to be very aware of the abilities you use rather than effectively having an infinite rage bar like you do now. Although having near infinite mana is fun, its not really balanced so im not surprised they changed Jotw, having said that I do think the reduction was a little heavy handed. Going from 33% to 20-25% would be better in my opinion.
Thank you for doing the Math. I suspected ret was being balanced as such. This of course contradicts the chance of ret paladins thowing out combat heals with art of war procs.

Also could you see what throwing in BoW or mana spring totems does to balance the equation?

In PVP it will make draining ret paladins viable again though.
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Postby Magnusharkov » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:12 pm

Sure

Improved mana spring is 1276 mana/min at lvl80
Improved BoW is 1310 mana/min at lvl 80

Thats enough mana for maybe 2 or 3 consecrates per minute in your rotation.
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:15 pm

Sorry to bug you again but the new CS gylph is a 20% reduction in it's mana cost. Should be close to required now.
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Postby Grimmal » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:30 pm

To clarify what I meant, it's not the fault of the Ret Players out there and for everybody screaming that it's the fault of Ret that is how you are coming off.

The people who have played Ret for years wanted to be balanced, not to unbalanced the entire class system. My point was that if you want to blame anybody then quit saying it's because of Ret Paladins and say that it's because of Blizzard themselves apparently not knowing how to fix the situation that they themselves have caused.

As for the damage nerfs, there is no reason to have nerfed Wisdom/Light/Right unless they felt that Prot Paladins were doing to much damage as well. Vengeance/Blood/Command I can understand being blamed on Ret only, but does anybody really think those other three were going to become the mainstay of Ret even with the new nerfed coefficients? Even with Sheath of Light?

Either they felt that Prot (obviously not Holy as they just continue to take it...) was doing more damage than they intended, or they just have no clue what they are doing with this change.
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Postby crabcrouton » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:28 pm

That's a very good point.

If you bought a chess game and it had extra black pieces and missing white pieces, you wouldn't blame the player using the black side.

You'd blame the company that made it. And rightly so, Ghostcrawler has admitted that any nerfs/buffs to abilities are the direct fault of the devs who couldn't balance it in a bug-free environment beforehand.
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Postby lusisia » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:07 pm

And the beta forums are still borked ;)

Honestly, I seriously think they're intentionally offline because of this change alone.
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