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All things related to the expansion

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Postby Io.Draco » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:41 am

iliya wrote:
Exewu wrote:
Either way, here's to hoping to a decent review before LK goes live.


You are so naive.


People used to say that when prot palas where sucking it badly at start of TBC :P

never lose hope !
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Postby Kysen » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:42 am

Its ironic over the whole of beta the most changes happen in the last few weeks. Ret was totally fine all those months in beta even to the point of hitting live. Within 24hrs hotfixes? If they wanted to wildly change talents they should have experimented ages ago, seems people are still testing on live.

This is TBC all over again. 18 days.
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Postby Vanrip » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:17 am

Daeren wrote:The lame part is that the source of all this nerfing is retribution because of a stupid talent named sheat of light. It gives ret paladins a double dipping funtion that makes their seals and judgements far too powerful.

Holy paladins don't wear AP, so they don't double dip
Prot paladins get benefit from stamina equal to 30% to spell power. It makes two DIFFERENT stats affect our power.
Ret paladins however gain BOTH ap and spell power from the same stat. And since alot of the things that was nerfed was nerfed regarding that, I think it's really stupid to not fix the real problem.

This nerf affected both prot and holy paladins too much,


I agree with Daeren.. They should be nerfing Sheath of Light rather than nerfing pallies across the board.. I think this is best solution to the problem with ret pallies, and hopefully blizz realizes it before its too late..
Need Nerf the tree not the class!
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Postby iliya » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:40 am

Io.Draco wrote:
People used to say that when prot palas where sucking it badly at start of TBC :P

never lose hope !


Too late. Was planning on taking a break from the game after the expansion came out, but was hesitant. This made me push the 'cancel subscription' button and want to punch that stupid crying peon in the face. No, I don't believe i'll accomplish or say anything by doing it, I just am.
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Postby majiben » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:46 am

Macha wrote:
Grimmal wrote:Also for those of you who are, please quit blaming Ret Paladins for this. Nerfing our entire damage system has nothing to do with Ret, it has to do with Blizzard somehow thinking that Paladins were doing to much damage. There was no reason to nerf anything but Blood and Command otherwise.


Wrong - it is Ret Paladins. If you just nerf Blood/Command, Ret Paladins just switch to another seal. That is why all seals were nerfed. Remember, until the last seal nerf, Vengeance was actually the best DPS seal. Then seals got nerfed(again).
Now, they just nerfed all seals, to make sure Ret is actually affected.

You really need to remember that Sheath of Light makes Ret's AP scale incredibly well for seals.
I really think Blizzard needs to add a new seal for holy paladins. Yes SoR might scale better with SP than AP but the AP scaling portion can still make it abusable by ret. Now they can't remove the AP scaling from SoR because low leveling paladins would have nothing to level with. A new seal scaling purely off SP, let's call it Seal of the Gaurdian, would let holy have a decent seal while keeping it away from ret and prot.
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Postby Galoheart » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:02 am

Im personally starting to loose faith in the Devs when it comes specifically to the Paladin class. I woke up today with a massive migraine after all these changes. I'm played my class for over 2 years. But today I pulled up WoW looked at my account realizing when the game starts giving me migraine it's about time to start considering cancelling it.

I just can't seem to stomach these changes anymore. And I'm slowly loosing my dedicated faith to the class. There is no other class option for me when my faith is totally lost in all these changes that just make no sense.
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Postby Jeslena » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:11 am

I'm going to wait to see how the 10% increase in armor effects the threat of other tanks before I start QQing over this change. It is likely we will still be behind, but I rather to have some numerical values to compare.
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Postby Flex » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:13 am

a 5%/10% Art of War doesn't actually change the damage critical hits did from the 10%/20% critical damage portion of the previous version of the talent. that makes me chuckle.
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Postby Jasari » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:16 am

I really don't understand the whole "the sky is falling" panic that I'm seeing from this patch being announced.

A few days ago people were saying things like "I feel so OP", "I'm beating mages on the damage meter", "will we be nerfed". And now because of a few nerfs to seal damage it's as if we've gone down the shitter.

Are you kidding me? Canceling subscriptions, rerolling, switching to a warrior main?

Sure, we all have ideas of what we think would've been better fixes to balance ret without nerfing prot, but the bottom line is that we're in a pretty damn good place right now. HoR up to 4x weapon dps, 3% more mitigation, not to mention all the other buffs that we've had for a while now.

Before you start freaking out and jumping off of tall building, try playing with the new changes and see if you notice any real difference with game play. Sure, you'll see a few smaller numbers from some abilities, but I promise no one will be out threating you any time soon. Worrying about some theoretical time in the distant future where dps scales better than us and we're no longer threat machines is ridiculous. Blizzard has said they don't want threat to be the kind of problem it was in BC so I'm sure if it becomes an issue they'll address it.

Out mitigation is good, our mechanics are good, our threat is GOOD. We're competitive main tanks and we're not even as shitty in pvp as we used to be. I'd say we're in a pretty damn good position right now. If you really think it's that bad, just cancel your subscription and stop posting on here. I'm sure I'm not the only person getting fed up with "wow, we're terrible again, I hate blizzard, I'm quitting" posts that arise during every nerf we ever get.
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Postby tullock » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:30 am

Hotr already deals 4x dps, the change in the build is a tooltip update. We are already the low threat tank with the buffed 4x hotr. The 3% mitigation they are adding to talents is being put in so we take the similar damage to warriors... They are nerfing our seals across the board, they are nerfing the mana and health gains from seal and judgement of light and wisdom across the board. Whether or not ret is too strong has no impact on the fact that they are directly nerfing protection and holy paladins with these changes. Thats where most of the complaints on this site come from i'd assume, since most of us will be prot for wotlk.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:37 am

Jasari wrote:I really don't understand the whole "the sky is falling" panic that I'm seeing from this patch being announced.

A few days ago people were saying things like "I feel so OP", "I'm beating mages on the damage meter", "will we be nerfed". And now because of a few nerfs to seal damage it's as if we've gone down the shitter.

Are you kidding me? Canceling subscriptions, rerolling, switching to a warrior main?


Why not? We were doing good, but we're still at the bottom. Especially as tanks. We don't know what the Tanking Kit is, explicitely. We do know, however, that we have less health, less mitigation, less emergency buttons, less threat, and less taunts than every other tank. We're missing a reliable interupt compared to other tanks. The only buff we bring is Sanctuary. Prot, my prefered spec, now does less damage AND threat.

This is a death-knell. It's signaling the end of my favorite character. It'll mean that, if I want my guild to progress, I've got to sit down and let the Warrior tank (and I really don't want to, he's a goddamn asshole and doesn't deserve the amount of work he got in Burning Crusade just because he's a Warrior).

Jasari wrote:Sure, we all have ideas of what we think would've been better fixes to balance ret without nerfing prot, but the bottom line is that we're in a pretty damn good place right now. HoR up to 4x weapon dps, 3% more mitigation, not to mention all the other buffs that we've had for a while now.


Which brings us on par with pre-patch Warriors.

We're still playing catch-up. This isn't good. Better, but not good.

Jasari wrote:Before you start freaking out and jumping off of tall building, try playing with the new changes and see if you notice any real difference with game play. Sure, you'll see a few smaller numbers from some abilities, but I promise no one will be out threating you any time soon. Worrying about some theoretical time in the distant future where dps scales better than us and we're no longer threat machines is ridiculous. Blizzard has said they don't want threat to be the kind of problem it was in BC so I'm sure if it becomes an issue they'll address it.


Did you see how much they lowered the scaling on SoV? And SoR? I'll solo slower, I'll tank slower, I'll do less threat, and it's already on the verge of being overtaken by some of our better-geared DPS when they unload everything at the end of a fight, and on top of all of that I don't get to do my nifty tricks anymore like soloing old raid bosses due to the nerf on Seal and Judgement of Light.

It's ridiculous. I'm royally pissed off on principle. It doesn't make any sense to continue to punish us for the lack of forsight on the part of the design team.

Jasari wrote:Out mitigation is good, our mechanics are good, our threat is GOOD. We're competitive main tanks and we're not even as shitty in pvp as we used to be. I'd say we're in a pretty damn good position right now. If you really think it's that bad, just cancel your subscription and stop posting on here. I'm sure I'm not the only person getting fed up with "wow, we're terrible again, I hate blizzard, I'm quitting" posts that arise during every nerf we ever get.


We're competitive...but only in the same way that the 5th place runner in a marathon is. Yes, we competed. Yes, we can do it. Are we prefered? By the numbers, no.
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Postby Havn » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:39 am

To be honest most of what people call FOTM ret pallys are actually our down trodden holy brothers. They have toiled away being forced into the niche of pocket healer for so long that when they finally got warrior type pvp dps they jumped at the chance to play.

These paladins probably had a nice stock pile of great gear which to switch over. The reason you see so many paladins out there is because its new for the class to be able to kick the crap out of things. Warriors have been able to do it for awhile so it isnt new to them.

So we see all the holy paladins out there having fun and they are wrecking the battle grounds. I honestly think that if 2 arms warriors rolled up on me I would die just as fast as if 2 ret pallys rolled up on me.

They most likely needed a small nerf but i do not think they were as far out of line as most people think they were. It was the fact that there were just so many people playing ret in the bgs.

People were use to dying to arms warriors. Getting wrecked by ret is new and they complained.
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Postby guillex » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:49 am

Give it time. It's Build 9138. It's still Beta. People are quick to hit the cancel subscription button these days.

Chill out a bit.
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Postby Tev » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:57 am

I just knew we would be nerfed, but I didn't think it was this bad. The JotW nerf seems overboard. Since we don't have any dump abilities like rogues, warriors, DKs or ferals, we are tied to our ability cooldowns.
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Postby Macha » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:59 am

A few days ago people were saying things like "I feel so OP",


Yes, because threat is meaningless overall. We still have the worst threat and worst aggro of all tanks at 80, it just feels OP because no DPS can pull aggro.

Perspective. Pretending to surprised to "pass a mage" in a damage meter shows just that people are pretty inexperienced. I've passed mages in damage meters since forever. It is natural when you are holding things and mages have to singletarget something else first. Like, oh, in almost every trash pack with casters. Some mages singletarget, others aoe nuke. The singletarget people fall behind.

So many people came to Paladins way too late and completely lack experience of the class, else you'd know that, not to mention that it is basic math.
We're nowhere near anyones dps if everyone else a)plays properly and
B)CAN do so to begin with at the start of the fight.

try playing with the new changes and see if you notice any real difference with game play.


Done. I need to drink after 3 mobs now, which now take very long to kill. That is without using consecration(one to two mob drinking). Mana gain is really horrible now unless one pulls many enemies. Our soloing got pretty much gutted until 75. The last seal nerf hit it bad already.

At 80, it's still slow as heck, slower than my prot warrior at 70.

Let me guess: No beta account? It shows.

and stop posting on here.


How about if talking and discussing BETA content is too much for you, YOU stop posting on here? A beta is not there to play it, have fun, and wait and see. A beta is there to play it, find mistakes, discuss them, and then report them.
This is not a difficult concept, please understand it and otherwise stop whining that people treat a beta like an actual beta.
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