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Ideas to Fix Retri

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Ideas to Fix Retri

Postby Kellern » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:48 pm

right now, blizz says Retri is too "bursty" which makes it OP in pvp.

So why not.. take reckoning from the prot tree, add it to retri as a "chance on hit" to gain the extra attacks.. probably 5% or something and duration increase due to weapon speeds.

So prot gets free space to add better prot stuff, and retri gets better dps over time.

You'd have to take a few of the crappier talents out of ret to maintain talent points balance but I think this might be a decent solution.. a paladin answer to Flurry and Sword Specialisation and things of that nature.

Thoughts?
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Postby SmurfZG » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:55 pm

isn't that the opposite of less burst
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Postby Hinenuitepo » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:12 pm

It's the ability to frontload so much damage that's the problem.

This isn't less burst, it might work.... but you haven't actually removed any burstiness from the Ret tree. So give them something like this, but you've got to tone down some of their burst still.

Accomplishes nothing except give more dps over time. I guess it might be considered burst, but it's RNG burst which isn't as bad as what Ret is now. The forums are full of people in full S3/4 gear getting 'one-shotted' by Retadins in blues/greens because they can put out huge damage in the first full seconds and stun while doing it.
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Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:18 pm

Way to fix ret, pick any two:

Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.
Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.
Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.
Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

right now, even with the "High burst" we do either lots of damage or zero damage in arena. The reason? We're way too kitable. BoFreedom != charge, vanish, sprint, feral charge, cyclone, intercept, blink, .... you get the idea. Also healing != cc. We do 0 dps when we heal, even the instant FoL since Paladin is entirely strike based.
Last edited by Elsie on Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Conaan! » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:19 pm

Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.


what abilities are off gcd, i dont remember rogues/warriors/shamans having anything off GCD, i know hunters do
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Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:20 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.


what abilities are off gcd, i dont remember rogues/warriors/shamans having anything off GCD, i know hunters do

http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown
(not that it has been updated)
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Postby Kellern » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:42 pm

like an idiot, i meant to add reducing the damage of CS and DS, to help lower the spike damage.

a total haste increase would be another option


I'm just throwing ideas out that could potentially find their way into being useful. but they won't do any good rotting in my mind.
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Postby Hinenuitepo » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:29 pm

Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:

Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.
Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.
Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.
Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

right now, even with the "High burst" we do either lots of damage or zero damage in arena. The reason? We're way too kitable. BoFreedom != charge, vanish, sprint, feral charge, cyclone, intercept, blink, .... you get the idea. Also healing != cc. We do 0 dps when we heal, even the instant FoL since Paladin is entirely strike based.


Yes, buff Retadins moar!
As Kellern corrected himself, the problem acknowledged by all but a hardcore few is that they're op in pvp (the memo of which you seem to have missed).
Perhaps you're focussing on how to fix their weaknessess but don't forget that they're ridiculous right now. Why else is every noob out there rerolling em?
Sure, a flat haste talent might work well.
Reducing the most spikey talents are good if balanced by passive sustained dps buffs.
I think consecrate dps needs to be nerfed too, which would need balancing.
Perhaps the 2-hand talent should be rebuffed.

Poor Blizz really bolloxed this one up - now they've got quite the mess to clean up.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:09 pm

Hinenuitepo wrote:Poor Blizz really bolloxed this one up - now they've got quite the mess to clean up.


I am skeptical of this.

What looks at 70 to be Extreme Burst is going to be countered at 80 by significantly larger health pools. Hunters saw the same deal in 2.0, when no one had health pools high enough. You'll go from "I died before healers could heal me" to "My healer can keep up, if we're careful".

I'll hold off on claims of bollocksing until we're at 80 and doing PvP. I'm sure Blizzard is well aware that there may be more nerfs coming Ret's way at that point... but perhaps there won't need to be.
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Postby Conaan! » Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:50 pm

Elsie wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.


what abilities are off gcd, i dont remember rogues/warriors/shamans having anything off GCD, i know hunters do

http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown
(not that it has been updated)


Abilities noted for not affecting nor being affected by the global cooldown:

* Druid's Maul, bear attack used for tanking
* Druid's Nature's Swiftness, used for healing spells or balance druid attacks
* Hunter's Kill Command, count 1 for you
* Hunter's Rapid Fire, long CD attack, count 2 for you
* Hunter's Readiness, not really an attack, but ill count it for you, count 3
* Paladin's Judgement, outdated
* Rogue's Cold Blood, self buff, not an attack
* Rogue's Preparation, used out of combat, so doesnt matter that much
* Rogue's Evasion, count 4 for you
* Rogue's Sprint, count 5 for you
* Rogue's Vanish, count 6 for you
* Troll's Berserking, trolls only, dont see alot of troll physical dps on my server
* Warrior's Charge, out of combat ability
* Warrior's Cleave, count 7
* Warrior's Heroic Strike, count 8
* Warrior's Intercept, not really an attack
* Warrior's Shield Block, tanking ability, now outdated
* Warrior's Sweeping Strikes, count 9



so, 9 abilities
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Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:57 pm

Elsie wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.


what abilities are off gcd, i dont remember rogues/warriors/shamans having anything off GCD, i know hunters do

http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown
(not that it has been updated)


This is flat out wrong currently btw ^_^ Rapid Fire, Readiness (yes, readiness), aspects (for now) and Bestial Wrath are all on the GCD since 3.0. Rogue and warrior abilities that are off the GCD are interrupts, stance switches (on their own CD, like aspects soon will be) and cooldowns like evasion/sprint. Everyone's damage abilities are on the GCD, and rogues and hunters pretty much spend 100% of their DPS time waiting for GCDs to tick over (well, rogues will stop when energy runs dry, but that's not exactly an improvement).
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Postby Morganim » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:34 pm

Hinenuitepo wrote:
Elsie wrote:Way to fix ret, pick any two:

Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.
Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.
Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.
Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.
Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

right now, even with the "High burst" we do either lots of damage or zero damage in arena. The reason? We're way too kitable. BoFreedom != charge, vanish, sprint, feral charge, cyclone, intercept, blink, .... you get the idea. Also healing != cc. We do 0 dps when we heal, even the instant FoL since Paladin is entirely strike based.


Yes, buff Retadins moar!
As Kellern corrected himself, the problem acknowledged by all but a hardcore few is that they're op in pvp (the memo of which you seem to have missed).
Perhaps you're focussing on how to fix their weaknessess but don't forget that they're ridiculous right now. Why else is every noob out there rerolling em?
Sure, a flat haste talent might work well.
Reducing the most spikey talents are good if balanced by passive sustained dps buffs.
I think consecrate dps needs to be nerfed too, which would need balancing.
Perhaps the 2-hand talent should be rebuffed.

Poor Blizz really bolloxed this one up - now they've got quite the mess to clean up.


The big problem is that we have 2 big hitting instant cast moves in which time 2 white swings will go off but then you have to wait for the long CD's.
compare this to a rogue who hits for less but a lot more frequently so doesnt have that 2 shot capability.

I honeslty cant see how to do it, probably why im not a dev :D, could lower the damage and add a third strike or lower the damage and lower the cooldowns, but that could just lead to different forms of bursty damage
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Postby Lore » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:48 pm

Elsie wrote:Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.

Enhancement shaman?

Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.

HoJ?

Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.

Again, HoJ? Repentance?

Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.

What?

Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

Please no.
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Postby PsiVen » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:06 am

Ret was fine before the nerfs, but with our burst gutted we need something more. An MS debuff. It's the only thing that melee absolutely require to kill good healers.
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Postby Proudfoot » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:28 am

Lore wrote:
Elsie wrote:Give them a charge/teleport ability like every physical dps.

Enhancement shaman?

Enhancement shaman have spirit wolves that allow them to sprint and break movement impares. Granted it's only once every 3 mins. They could also use some love here.

Give them an interrupt like every physical dps.

HoJ?
HoJ is not a reliable interupt, and it's not off the GCD like ALL other classes interupt.

Give them some form of healer disruption like most other physical dps.

Again, HoJ? Repentance?
Again, it's not a reliable interupt and I think he was refering to a MS type ability to limit healing done.

Remove some of their abilities from the GCD like most other physical DPS.

What?
All paladin abilities are on GCD now unless I missed something.

Remove our Divine Shield ability for 3 abilities that work almost as good, but not quite as good.

Please no.
Divine Shield is rather powerful when combo'd with our burst, but nerfing burst isn't the answer unless we get things to compensate like other classes have.

I'd much rather have HoJ durration nerfed and cooldown lowered. Having to go into prot to get improved HoJ is dumb and makes having so many PVP talents in Ret pointless.
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