How fast to raiding in wrath?

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Postby ARogers » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:13 am

I actually hit 70 right after 2.3, so when I started, peopel were still running regular 5-mans and stuff. It's taken a huge change, even before 2.4 hit. Right before 2.4 and after, it was dang near impossible to find a normal 5-man. People got too easily geared. You can just look at how people gear up alts so fast. A good example is a priest healer. They can take tailoring and get enough healing from quest items and mooncloth tailoring to heal kara easily. I remember when you had to grind 5-mans for drops so you could get the gear to finally hit the 1000 healing people wanted for Kara. Now you can hit 1000 like it's nothing. I finished leveling my shammy a couple months ago. I was able to hit 1400 healing in less than 2 weeks with only 1 drop from kara (weapon off maiden).

I can't wait to go back to the hard-playing to gear up.
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Postby degre » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:46 am

mirkodeluxe wrote:
degre wrote:Has been stated that trash in the LK is currently gimped in order to have all the mechanics tested, so dont judge all on the base of what is now, wont be the same on release.

Can we get confirmation on this?

The only thing I could find so far is this:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... sid=2000#3
Valnoth wrote:And for what it's worth, we are not done tuning the heroics. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

Quite old though, that was 3 weeks ago.

I was not referring to this anyway, was in some Naxx related thread, where in response to people saying that now trash was cake, this chap was saying that was on purpose as testers are meant to test the content, and so trash was lighter to make easier for them to reach bosses and do their testing.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:16 am

degre wrote:
mirkodeluxe wrote:
degre wrote:Has been stated that trash in the LK is currently gimped in order to have all the mechanics tested, so dont judge all on the base of what is now, wont be the same on release.

Can we get confirmation on this?

The only thing I could find so far is this:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... sid=2000#3
Valnoth wrote:And for what it's worth, we are not done tuning the heroics. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

Quite old though, that was 3 weeks ago.

I was not referring to this anyway, was in some Naxx related thread, where in response to people saying that now trash was cake, this chap was saying that was on purpose as testers are meant to test the content, and so trash was lighter to make easier for them to reach bosses and do their testing.


Sure, but it goes both ways. If trash is trivial it serves no real purpose but to slow your progress down and it doesnt really prepare you for the fights to come. Sure, a bossfight should have some quirks and mechanics that you need to master before you take the boss down but a well-tuned dungeon should also include trash that is challenging and keeps you on your toes rather than just be a minor nuisance.

Take the trash in BM for example, that was a clever way of making you think since it was something new and challenging.
Trash in MH got annoying after a while, but it was something that made you think in a different way than before where you had 1 or 2 mobs patrolling and most mobs just standing around waiting to be tanked.

So, if they intend to make the trash harder then how are they going to tune that before launch I wonder..
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Postby Katerina » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:47 am

I always thought the trash waves in MH had the benefit of being somewhat realistic. If you were defending a town, you would expect to have waves of enemies flying at you. 'Normal' trash that just stands there blind and deaf while you kill the group a few yards away seems a bit... well, there is a reason we call them trash.

The guantlet style trash always appeals to me. Heroic Mech on the way to Calculator.... Heroic Shattered Halls after the first boss....

It has to be hard to balance though. Heroics should be doable (with difficulty) by average players in level appropriate and enchanted blues IF they are to be where we get the gear to do the first raids. So therefore they become trival after people have the gear from said raids.

Sounds like some folks didn't do heroic Bot back when 'good' dps was in the 4-600 range. The first boss had ADDS then. It took us 20 min to kill the second boss the very first time because she was healing herself. Warp Splinter would stun everyone and kill the tank - or get healed to full by the adds. Heck, I remember wiping on the flower pulls before Warp Splinter. There wasn't much a warrior or bear tank could do with that many mobs, not a whole lot of cc for plants, and they still hit hard enough to kill squishies (who were often rocking 6k hit points back then). The mini-Illhoof boss would sometimes sacrifice my healers six times over the course of the fight and even the tank had to run out of the fire.....

Now Heroic bot is a half-hour romp, but it wasn't always like that.

You know, I would ideally like to see heroics be more ZA-ish. Doable by 80's who have done the regular 5-mans enough to get some gear (or made their BoP items), but with some mechanic (timed chests in ZA's case) to allow it to be fun and profitable for those that overgear the base content. Maybe have it drop pets/mounts/recipes/whatever if you clear it in a certain amount of time.
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Postby Fionneous » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:14 pm

It boils down to these points that people have stated a few times over:

1. In TBC, early content was too hard.
-Unshackle-able ushers that would tomb a tank and then wipe the raid
-Nightbane pre "everyone gets fear ward" and while fearing a tank removes aggro for the duration of the fear
-Gruul shatters
-Coilfang Defenders, Underbog pair of mobs before Hungarfen, Destroyers in H. Mechanar

2. Gear values have shifted dramatically.
-Pre 3.0, people would get hissy if Kara healers in a PuG didn't have 1800-2k bonus healing.
-Pre Sunwell, people were working on Hyjal and BT with 1800 bonus healing

3. Badge gear has scaled, content has not
-2 Entire additional loads of badge gear were added with ZA and then Sunwell; people act like 150 badge weapons are the norm.

4. The game cannot simply continue to get "harder" as an absolute
-If everything beyond 70 started with MgT as a frame of reference, level 80 content would be so hard as to be unenjoyable. Every pull would need to contain 4-5 mobs, some melee, some casters, most with stuns. Trash mobs would all need to enrage at 20%, summon adds, have complicated mechanics such as spell reflects or random charges.
-In order to remain playable, there need to be "easy" instances and "hard" instances all tuned for the same level. The alternative is "hard" to "harder," which simply reverts to problem 1, above.

When you complain about heroics being too easy, consider what it would be like to have *every* instance being as hard as or harder than heroic MgT.

Ask yourself, would you want to PuG Heroic MgT?

If not, then you can basically count on never being able to PuG a Heroic at all, whether it be for extra badges, for fun, or for the daily.

All of this is also entirely relative to the gear of the group. Heroics should (as they have in TBC) get easier as you overgear the encounter.

Imagine a dungeon so hard that adding new gear does nothing to make it any easier (in SWP, for example, adding extra gear does nothing to help a moment of inattention on Felmyst or a failure to run a conflag out during Twins).

Is that a fair, or reasonable standard to expect out of non-raid content?

I enjoy a challenging instance now and again, but when I hear people complaining that 5 mans (heroic or otherwise) need to be so hard as that only the best of the best can complete them, it just sounds like people transferring the elitist attitude of raid design all the way down to 5 mans.

If heroics become where you truly prove your mettle, what is the point of a raid instance?
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Postby Zironic » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:29 pm

If heroics become where you truly prove your mettle, what is the point of a raid instance?

Would be interesting to have atleast one hardcore 5 man with raid level complexity in the fights.[/quote]
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Postby majiben » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:39 pm

Well said Fionneous. I look forward to your future posts if they show the same insight and care as your first post did.
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Postby Fionneous » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:48 pm

Zironic wrote:
If heroics become where you truly prove your mettle, what is the point of a raid instance?

Would be interesting to have atleast one hardcore 5 man with raid level complexity in the fights.
[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly- at least one fight like that, with loot to match, would be quite fun and challenging, but not ALL of them.

I honestly believe that some people think every fight in a heroic at level 80 should be designed that way simply because it is level 80.

This is essentially treating 80 instance scaling as categorically more difficult than anything at 70.

It's the same thing as assuming that everything should be more difficult at 70 than it was at 60.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying:

"A Dire Maul tribute run was harder at 60 [GIVEN THE AVAILABLE GEAR AND TALENTS] than Mechanar was at 70,"

Just like I don't think there will be anything wrong with saying:

"Heroic MgT was harder at 70 [same caveat as above]" than regular (or perhaps even heroic) Halls of Lightning at 80."
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:58 pm

mavfin wrote:Just remember that for raiders that did Naxx, this is old reused content to you. To the other <some huge>% that never saw it, or barely started it, it's new, and not quite as easy.

Well said. I'm in the latter camp, and am really looking forward to a raid instance that was reknowned for excellence.

Katerina wrote:I would ideally like to see heroics be more ZA-ish. Doable by 80's who have done the regular 5-mans enough to get some gear ... but with some mechanic (timed chests in ZA's case) to allow it to be fun and profitable for those that overgear the base content.


That's a great idea, I think. Players can either brute force it, or do it early with skill and preparation. I like it.

And, Fionneous -- well said. :D
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:34 pm

The original stated purpose of Heroics was to provide raid-difficulty challenges to 5-man groups. That's what they were there for, and WotLK has marked a shift in philosophy. We have fewer 80 instances because they're just "high leveling instances" now, and all the heroics are basically what we had in TBC for pre-nerf non-heroics.

Make no mistake, while badge gear has certainly whittled away the difficulty of content, it is not badge gear that nerfed Heroics. It was Blizzard who nerfed Heroics, intentionally and directly, back when badges were for trinkets and FR gear that everybody thought they would need.

So yes, I am saying that current 70 Heroics are trivial. Walk into HSH in dungeon blues at any point in the past year and there is no question that you will have an easier time than a partial T5 group did when the Tempest Key still functioned. Give us that feeling back in Epic dungeons, drop Valor tier loot, and I'll be happy.
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Postby GothicPL » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:34 pm

PsiVen wrote:The original stated purpose of Heroics was to provide raid-difficulty challenges to 5-man groups. That's what they were there for, and WotLK has marked a shift in philosophy. We have fewer 80 instances because they're just "high leveling instances" now, and all the heroics are basically what we had in TBC for pre-nerf non-heroics.

Make no mistake, while badge gear has certainly whittled away the difficulty of content, it is not badge gear that nerfed Heroics. It was Blizzard who nerfed Heroics, intentionally and directly, back when badges were for trinkets and FR gear that everybody thought they would need.

So yes, I am saying that current 70 Heroics are trivial. Walk into HSH in dungeon blues at any point in the past year and there is no question that you will have an easier time than a partial T5 group did when the Tempest Key still functioned. Give us that feeling back in Epic dungeons, drop Valor tier loot, and I'll be happy.


I like the idea of heroics with varying levels of difficulty. Folks who just want to farm badges will run easier ones, just like they did with H Mech/Bot/SP back in the day. Folks who want a bit more of a challenge and potentially a nice unique drop will run harder ones (H MgT, Arc, BM, SH difficulty level).
It fits well with the whole idea of a smooth difficulty curve for level 80 content, which is an excellent approach to the game design.

One thing I like about new instances is that they are short and they have less trash. I mean, come on, is there anyone here who really enjoys clearing trash in heroic SL, MgT or Arc? It's not even challenging, just extremely mundane.

I don't mind at least somewhat difficult bosses, by the way, and I don't think they are that easy even today. My group wiped on Anub'Arak the other day about three times before we killed him. It was reasonably hard in lvl 80 PvP blues on Murmur, lots of aoe damage to heal through, and quite a few things going on in the fight (Ahune-like spikes, DPS race to avoid being overwhelmed by the adds, Stomp to run away from).

From reading Beta forums, Blizzard seems to be pretty receptive to adjusting numbers on the heroic boss fights, so overall I think existing lvl 80 heroics are where they should be.
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Postby rodos » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:17 pm

I too like the idea of some kind of progression of difficulty in 5-man heroics, if there was loot scaling too. I think 5 raiders at any progression level should be able to pick a heroic where they will have fun, be challenged, and get a useful reward.

Through TBC I've been running 10-mans with a regular group of guildies 1-2 days per week. Some weeks, people are missing and we don't really like to PuG from outside the guild. It would be good if we could do something more than "farm badges" in more-or-less trivial heroics on these weeks. I can only imagine how boring it must be for T6 guilds if a raid night is called off for some reason.
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