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Judgements make me sad

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Judgements make me sad

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:39 pm

I was poking around the other night and I noticed that, at 70, Judgement damage is really crappy compared to, say, HotR. Like, I'm HotRing for 850ish with a melee weapon, and judging a full 5-stack of SoV for about 500.

Meanwhile HotR is on a 6 second cooldown and hits 3 things and applies 3 seals, and Judgement is on a 9 second cooldown, hits 1 thing, and applies 1 seal.

Obviously judgements scale much faster with AP than HotR does. What's the discrepancy like at 80 with ilvl 200 or 213 stuff? I'm only around 1100-1500 AP here at 70, so maybe when I get to 3k or so it'll catch up. But then I'll also have a 150+ dps weapon.

Is it even a valid comparison to expect the longer-cooldown attacks to produce more damage? At this point I'd rather skip a judgement than a hotr to weave in something infrequent like AS. I can skip one judgement without dropping the debuff, which seems like the only use for it at the moment.
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Re: Judgements make me sad

Postby Macha » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:45 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:Is it even a valid comparison to expect the longer-cooldown attacks to produce more damage?


Judgements: Apply at least two debuffs as a prot paladin
HotR: Applies no debuff, and applies the seal proc.

No, it's not a valid comparison, both have different purposes.
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Re: Judgements make me sad

Postby Zironic » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:47 pm

Macha wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Is it even a valid comparison to expect the longer-cooldown attacks to produce more damage?


Judgements: Apply at least two debuffs as a prot paladin
HotR: Applies no debuff, and applies the seal proc.

No, it's not a valid comparison, both have different purposes.


The debuff only has to be reapplied every 20 seconds though.
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Re: Judgements make me sad

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:55 pm

Macha wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Is it even a valid comparison to expect the longer-cooldown attacks to produce more damage?


Judgements: Apply at least two debuffs as a prot paladin
HotR: Applies no debuff, and applies the seal proc.

No, it's not a valid comparison, both have different purposes.


Well OK, but JoV after 2.4 was doing more damage for me than it was on beta after gaining 10 levels, spending 5 talents points to improve it, and then spending a glyph slot to improve it again.

Since in full context our DPS is much higher, it's not a big deal, well unless you are holy.
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Re: Judgements make me sad

Postby Noradin » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:59 pm

Macha wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Is it even a valid comparison to expect the longer-cooldown attacks to produce more damage?


Judgements: Apply at least two debuffs as a prot paladin
HotR: Applies no debuff, and applies the seal proc.

No, it's not a valid comparison, both have different purposes.


Judgements: Apply at least two debuffs as a prot paladin and a seal proc.
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Re: Judgements make me sad

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:01 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Since in full context our DPS is much higher, it's not a big deal, well unless you are holy.


Yeah... those poor schmoes. I blame ret. ;) (They do get a LOT of spellpower from sheathe... to the point where they're probably not that far off from actual holy paladins in spellpower gear when they're raid buffed.)

Right now my judgements just feel so ineffectual. I know I want to keep up a debuff (or two, I have Heart atm), but it's got to be less than 1/2 the threat contribution of even my SoV ticks or heck, my white damage. It just feels wrong when it's been a relatively comparable piece of our rotation until now. I'm going to start looking at ways to judge every 18 instead of every 9, as things are.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:34 pm

The simple fact of keeping up JoW or JoL plus JotJ is enough of a reason to justify lower damage.

Warriors don't produce any damage when they demoralizing shout a boss, and produce close to nil damage and not impressive threat when thunder clapping, yet they happily do it.

And, my current uncritted JoV are already about same as my previous critted JoRs (in 40/21)
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:37 pm

I thought that Thunder Clap was at least decent threat now that it scales with AP?
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Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:38 pm

Nowhere close to comparable with Devastate, Revenge or Shield Slam.
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Postby Levantine » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:50 pm

Well duh, but it's like, not 'close to nothing' anymore.

Judgements have a lower damage (and therefore threat) than almost anything else a Paladin does as well, but I don't hear people saying it's 'next to nothing'.
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Postby Jasari » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:52 pm

HotR is also a 51 point talent instead of a base spell, I'd hope that it's pretty good.
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Postby Macawber » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:00 pm

Jasari wrote:HotR is also a 51 point talent instead of a base spell, I'd hope that it's pretty good.


I agree, it'd be pretty disappointing if HotR wasn't a lot better than judgment. I do feel bad for holy paladins (is holy shock useful for soloing now?), but HotR has to be better since you're giving up so much to get it.
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Postby Makaijin » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:20 pm

Well, although judgement damage isn't as high, don't forget it applies a debuff (more with talents), has a 10 yard rage, AND is usable on targets facing behind you. It's my favourite button to mash whenever I'm butt tanking a gouging mob. Warriors and Druid cry when tanking gouging mobs, I don't need an offtank while tanking Moroes. Ever get the "you are facing the wrong direction" error messages while spamming HotR? With judgements this message don't exist.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:53 pm

Worldie wrote:The simple fact of keeping up JoW or JoL plus JotJ is enough of a reason to justify lower damage.

Warriors don't produce any damage when they demoralizing shout a boss, and produce close to nil damage and not impressive threat when thunder clapping, yet they happily do it.

And, my current uncritted JoV are already about same as my previous critted JoRs (in 40/21)


I'd disagree with that, we've always been able to put up debuffs and if judgements followed a linear path of damage increases to 80, my JoV would likely be double its current damage in beta. Keep in mind, I have more stats contributing, and new spell rank, and 25% worth of glyphs and talents and it's still doing less.

Besides it's kind of contradictory because a ret pally's judgement of command absolutely destroys the pre 3.0 version, by an incredible amount. A better comparison to our judgements would probably be shocks from shaman, thunderclap is an aoe skill with an entirely different purpose. In AoE situations it's better than judgements and in a single target situation it isn't.

I don't really find it a problem other than it losing a bit of the fun factor because we were given extra attacks that make up for it. However, it is definitely a problem for holy pallys (noted by blues), and of course the reason they are doing so low damage is because they had to reduce the coefficent so much so ret pallys wouldn't use them.
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Postby Peredemer » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:39 pm

First, the two moves are completely different.

HoTR is a TPS backbone - it was made for generating threat.

Judgements on the other hand, while dealing a moderate and respectable amount of damage (10% glyphed on raid debuffs i see SoCorr critting for 2k, SoR for 2-2.5) they ALSO debuff the mob. Light and wisdom are EXTREMELY powerfull debuffs to have - they also stack to some extent.
Not to mention 20% slower attacks.

Your looking at Oranges and apples. Both moves are powerfull, but used for different things (in the same rotation, mind you).

Your ovbiously looking on this from a threat standpoint i gather? So my advise:
Keep HoTR on cooldown over ALL else, and judge light.

Light procs and healing credit you, and your threat.
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