How fast to raiding in wrath?

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Postby ARogers » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:17 pm

Rachmaninoff wrote:I totally agree. heroics airnt heroic anymore more. I upsets me that wrath might be the same. As far as MgT I thought that was a real challenge. yes the 3rd boss is lame, but damn that was fun before they nerfed it the first time.

they only problem with making "epic" lvl's of 5 mans is how do you determain how to make it epic? heroics you need to be honored (oginally revered when they were difficult) in order to enter them. but grinding rep isn't too hard. would someone have to be exaulted and finish a quest? ie kill a boss or several bosses? but that would be an attunement which the casuals would bitch an complain about. any ideas?


-Enrage Timers
-Phased 5-man bosses
-Bosses with challenging adds
-Bosses that do more damage! Why can't there be a boss that hits hard enough that a healer needs good healing just to keep him up?

Look at ZA like a hard 5-man. Eagle, lynx, and dragonhawk could be tuned for 5-mans somehow I'm sure. Eagle would be especially easy. I think the biggest part would be to add enrage timers and harder hitters. The harder hitting would make the tank and healer need to be better, and the enrage timer would cause the DPS to need to do better.

A fight like Attumen would be cool as a 5-man, especially wince the tanks all do better aoe damage. Even Prince. Make Prince cast enfeeble on 1 guy. If it was a healer or good dps, they'd have to be smart enough to get out of aoe range.
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Postby MrDuck » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:22 pm

Zironic wrote:Well, most of the TBC heroic bosses will also wipe your group if you've never done them before.

I think I'd like more 5 man fights where everyone has to pay attention, Archimonde is one of my favorite fights in the game because it requires flawless performence from everyone. It should be rather easy to scale that kind of fight down to 5 man.


Well, i agree with you on archimonde really. Thing is, i think most of BC 5man bosses were sorta easy..cept 3rd in MgT, it was just retarded fight (i hate whatever i can't tank). The only thing hard in heroics was the trash, and honestly, i don't think it's much fun pulling the same, or pretty similar mobs 20 times by 2-5 mobs between each boss. I'm not saying trash shouldn't be there,but it definitely shouldn't be harder than bosses. The only bosses i would consider harder than trash before is delrissa with some weird setups(hate that bi°#&!) and the last boss in mana tombs maybe, also vexallus, not like he was any hard,but the trash was quite relaxing(prolly forgot some, still it's negligible amount).

I really like learning a boss,wiping on him and such,cheering when it's down finally,but it really works only in 25mans in BC. Kara was meh...some trash hardr than bosses but somehow okay, but in heroics it was just awful, whenever we wiped,it was on trash while bosses were simply free kills in most cases. Imo the challenge to defeat a boss offers way more fun than killing the weird pack of mobs that you've killed 50times already through the single instance run.

So from what i read,if the bosses are actually harder than trash, i think i'll once again step into a 5man stuff to actually have fun :>
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Postby Splug » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:36 pm

Think of it this way: heroic bosses are easy, trash is almost completely trivial.

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Postby Holyfuri » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:03 pm

Quick question, since I haven't raided in the beta yet, and am looking to gather some strategies...

I haven't found any separate entries on wowhead, wowwiki, bosskillers, etc. for the new naxx. Would it be a proper assumption that every single boss strategy is identical to that of the old version then?
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:15 pm

ARogers wrote:how do you determain how to make it epic?

-Enrage Timers
-Phased 5-man bosses
-Bosses with challenging adds
-Bosses that do more damage! Why can't there be a boss that hits hard enough that a healer needs good healing just to keep him up?


Before people outgeared them, these effects WERE in BC dungeons:

Enrages: Kalithresh enrages when tanks aren't busted. I once was called in on my hunter to help a friend's group, since their people SUCKED AT DOING DAMAGE, or something. (I was in T4 gear and did like 40% of the group's damage.) Clearly, this can be tuned to varying degrees of group DPS.

Phases: Arcatraz final boss has phases, sortof. I also remember it horribly raping several groups I was in.

Also, on the Do More Damage: It'd be awesome if there were bosses which rewarded having hybrid classes toss out off-heals. If the Whirlwinds in heroic SH were more frequent, this might work ... but everyone'd just roll with That One AOE Healer or something.

I agree, challenging adds would be cool. I don't include Adds-of-the-casino in MgT, but the IDEA is sound.


edit:
I like the idea of easier heroics. I dislike heroics as "You really need a guild group on vent to do this", as I like being able to PUG them. Sure, pugs are often retards, but I'd like it to notbe guaranteed failure if we're not all experienced at playing with each other.
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Postby mavfin » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:41 pm

Just remember that for raiders that did Naxx, this is old reused content to you. To the other <some huge>% that never saw it, or barely started it, it's new, and not quite as easy.

Naxx is the starter raid instance. Simple as that.
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Postby Sheherezade » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:02 am

mavfin wrote:Just remember that for raiders that did Naxx, this is old reused content to you. To the other <some huge>% that never saw it, or barely started it, it's new, and not quite as easy.

Naxx is the starter raid instance. Simple as that.


personally I'm looking forward to returning there...
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:07 am

I also have a feeling that with GC's comments lately about AoE tanking, trash is going to get buffed in heroics. It seems they want CC to be important, as it is a core component of some classes, and now that all tanks can hold threat, mitigation will have to be the breaking point.
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Postby Nilaus » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:29 am

Fridmarr wrote:I also have a feeling that with GC's comments lately about AoE tanking, trash is going to get buffed in heroics. It seems they want CC to be important, as it is a core component of some classes, and now that all tanks can hold threat, mitigation will have to be the breaking point.


Another way of preventing mindless tanking of all adds in a pull is to add knockdowns/stuns to the adds. It is extremely frustrating to tank 4 adds with knockdowns on a 10sec cooldown. Or other gimmicks such as random charges. With 3-4 adds charging the ranged DPS and healer then it will probably be safer to CC some of them instead of just multitanking it all.
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Postby Macha » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:30 am

Fridmarr wrote:I also have a feeling that with GC's comments lately about AoE tanking, trash is going to get buffed in heroics. It seems they want CC to be important, as it is a core component of some classes, and now that all tanks can hold threat, mitigation will have to be the breaking point.


Which, well, kinda sucks for us, considering how much better at AOE Mitigation some other classes are.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:06 am

PsiVen wrote:As for MgT, that place is terribly designed. If you bring a group with poor CC and roll the wrong combo on the PvP boss, you lose, period. We had a full t6 group in there and got exactly our counter (I believe it was every melee type at once), wiped six times in a row to unavoidable gibs and logged in disgust. At least when we plowed through the horrific pre-Blackheart pulls in Heroic SL wearing T3/blues, we wiped repeatedly because we did something wrong and learned how to better handle the situation.

QFT

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I got the "all melee" combo with a group of full tier-6/Sunwell gear mains, wiped half a dozen times, and have never been back.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:56 am

Rachmaninoff wrote:they only problem with making "epic" lvl's of 5 mans is how do you determain how to make it epic? heroics you need to be honored (oginally revered when they were difficult) in order to enter them. but grinding rep isn't too hard. would someone have to be exaulted and finish a quest? ie kill a boss or several bosses? but that would be an attunement which the casuals would bitch an complain about. any ideas?


There's no reason for any attunements at all. Let people attempt them as soon as they dare.

Blizzard proved in TBC that they are capable of creating highly difficult 5-man content which is still doable with a wide variety of classes. The main flaws were the requirements for CC or AoE tanking which required less CC, both of which have already been solved by WotLK changes.

I don't think many people would complain that the 5-mans that drop 25-man loot are too hard.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:57 am

Knaughty wrote:
PvE prot paladin with no PvP gear... .I used to get to that fight, strap on healing gear, and spam FoL. Useful, eh?

I got the "all melee" combo with a group of full tier-6/Sunwell gear mains, wiped half a dozen times, and have never been back.


On the bright side we're a lot better at healing now when we get around 600 effective healing from our stamina : P
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Postby degre » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:46 am

Has been stated that trash in the LK is currently gimped in order to have all the mechanics tested, so dont judge all on the base of what is now, wont be the same on release.

Also, to all those geniuses that classified BC heroics as easy, I'd like to remind them that lots of bosses have funky abilities that require a minimum of brain activity, and where bosses are easier, often is cause trash was not, and an easier boss can be seen as a reward for some bad trash. Heroics done in D3 were not easy, not even with the first epics on.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:35 am

degre wrote:Has been stated that trash in the LK is currently gimped in order to have all the mechanics tested, so dont judge all on the base of what is now, wont be the same on release.

Can we get confirmation on this?
Also, to all those geniuses that classified BC heroics as easy, I'd like to remind them that lots of bosses have funky abilities that require a minimum of brain activity, and where bosses are easier, often is cause trash was not, and an easier boss can be seen as a reward for some bad trash. Heroics done in D3 were not easy, not even with the first epics on.


QFT

Although I dont agree that its stupid to call BC heroics easy.. Most of them are trivial now, but back when I had like 50% kara gear there certainly were some tricky heroics with hard-hitting trash, challenging bossfights and need for atleast some CC.
Sure, I could AoE tank - but the damage would gib me..

Im thinking Heroic: Mech, Botanica, Ramparts.

Then we have the Heroics that are hard, and annoying, by design. Like Auchindon, MgT and Durnholde. Gear makes a difference there, but its not all.
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