Holding and getting back Void Reaver's aggro.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Holding and getting back Void Reaver's aggro.

Postby Shiver » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:37 pm

I'm having serious problems holding VR.

I'm the first tank, and i can hold him for ~3:30 without breaking a sweat, the problem is after that, after i lose aggro for the first time, i can't seem to be able to hold him again for more than 20 seconds.

I try to consecrate and AS and stuff all i can, i even pop mana pots to generate more aggro.

This is my armory.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n&n=Zhiver

What could i be doing wrong?.
Image
With leet Paint sig making skillz!!! :D
Shiver
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:35 pm

Re: Holding and getting back Void Reaver's aggro.

Postby jere » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:16 pm

Shiver wrote:I'm having serious problems holding VR.

I'm the first tank, and i can hold him for ~3:30 without breaking a sweat, the problem is after that, after i lose aggro for the first time, i can't seem to be able to hold him again for more than 20 seconds.

I try to consecrate and AS and stuff all i can, i even pop mana pots to generate more aggro.

This is my armory.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n&n=Zhiver

What could i be doing wrong?.


I would get more spell dmg oriented tanking gear. He doesn't hit very hard at all. I usually have 408 unbuffed (I could get more). I use a wizard oil on my weapon, spell dmg food buff, and a flask of supreme power. That combined with a priest's improved divine spirit gets me in the area of 750 spell dmg once I judge Crusader.

One thing is to make sure your consecrates are actually hitting him. I also get as many of those netherthon mana pots to chain chug so I can lay in the threat.

So far that strat has worked for me. Even once I lose aggro, I tend to get it back by the next knockback.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Postby Teah » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:14 pm

Make sure your concescration is actually hitting VR. Don't assume it is.
Last edited by Teah on Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Teah
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:29 am

Postby Neuron » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:07 am

Biggest mistakes I made were that my consecration wasn't hitting him and I wore a dodge trinket with arcane resist and a warrior intervened me and hunters didn't MD me.

To really be the "I tanked it for 100%!!!!" guy:

1) Ask hunters to MD you. Coordinate an MD rotation
2) Wear a stam trinket and a block trinket, not avoidance
3) Don't wear any AR
4) Make sure your consecration is actually hitting him
5) Get a ret pally or judge crusader (be selfish!)
6) Get wrath totem + shadow priest
7) Buy 3 haste potions
http://www.ardentdefender.com - A combat log parsing API
User avatar
Neuron
 
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Nail Salon

Postby spatulor » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:43 am

other people have posted some good advice, but what i find works well is to wait until VR goes to some other tank, pop Avenging Wrath, and go nuts on him. Avenger's Shield, nonstop Judgements (which you should be doing anyway), consecrations that hit (watch your combat log) and maybe a spell damage trinket if you can afford to not wear a stam trinket - Living Ruby Serpent can do double duty here if you're a JC, but it's not as much stam as a darkmoon card.

otherwise, like other people said, push your spell damage as high as it can go - oil, food, flask, everything. Judge Crusader if you can get away with it, too.
User avatar
spatulor
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:09 pm

Postby Mortehl » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:07 am

I held VR the other night from beginning to 8% health through all the knockbacks with the following:

595 buffed self spell damage (food + oil)
100 from wrath of air
190 from JoTC
Periodic 170 from resists from Mag eye
Misdirects on a rotating basis from 3 hunters.

I was constantly running S/JoR, max rank consecrate, holy shield, and what not. I also popped AW every time it was up. Its important to note that the knockback reduces your threat by 25% so holding it for the knockbacks is a waste imo.
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
Mortehl
Moderator
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Naxx 10 prepping for Naxx 25

Postby DJSticky » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:36 am

All the advice above is good. I've never had the luck to have sanct aura or Santified Crusader on him so I just Judge Crusader.

Also at this point I prefer WF to WoA.
Image
DJSticky
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:09 am

Postby Mortehl » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:55 am

DJSticky wrote:All the advice above is good. I've never had the luck to have sanct aura or Santified Crusader on him so I just Judge Crusader.

Also at this point I prefer WF to WoA.


WF is a waste on the paladin tank group. Its easy to put a lock shaman and paladin tank in just about any other combination of groups without breaking them.
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
Mortehl
Moderator
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Naxx 10 prepping for Naxx 25

Postby DJSticky » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:02 am

Mortehl wrote:
DJSticky wrote:All the advice above is good. I've never had the luck to have sanct aura or Santified Crusader on him so I just Judge Crusader.

Also at this point I prefer WF to WoA.


WF is a waste on the paladin tank group. Its easy to put a lock shaman and paladin tank in just about any other combination of groups without breaking them.


I'm not sure why you say that, There is usualy a lock in the MT group, there is usualy a shaman there. There are also usualy other tanks in the group not other DPSers.

As far as WoA, any numbers showing it is better? I don't have any numbers for WF but I always see my highest TPS with WF. And yes I understand that WoA benifits Concecrate and HS and Judgments.
Image
DJSticky
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:09 am

Postby Mortehl » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:09 am

DJSticky wrote:
Mortehl wrote:
DJSticky wrote:All the advice above is good. I've never had the luck to have sanct aura or Santified Crusader on him so I just Judge Crusader.

Also at this point I prefer WF to WoA.


WF is a waste on the paladin tank group. Its easy to put a lock shaman and paladin tank in just about any other combination of groups without breaking them.


I'm not sure why you say that, There is usualy a lock in the MT group, there is usualy a shaman there. There are also usualy other tanks in the group not other DPSers.

As far as WoA, any numbers showing it is better? I don't have any numbers for WF but I always see my highest TPS with WF. And yes I understand that WoA benifits Concecrate and HS and Judgments.


WF would best be served in your melee DPS group. Meanwhile you can take an ele or resto shaman who would be assisting themselves as well as the lock while providing you with support.
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
Mortehl
Moderator
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Naxx 10 prepping for Naxx 25

Postby DJSticky » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:13 am

Mortehl wrote:WF would best be served in your melee DPS group. Meanwhile you can take an ele or resto shaman who would be assisting themselves as well as the lock while providing you with support.


Yes this is true if you were the only tank in the group. My MT group on VR is usualy Myself, Warrior, Feral Druid, Shaman, Lock.

Still if the objective is simply more TPS for me I'm not sure which is better WoA or WF, like I said going on "gut feelings" from watching Omen I seem to see higher threat with WF. I'll have to fraps a fight both ways.
Image
DJSticky
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:09 am

Postby jere » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:20 am

I tried working out the math using the following train of thought:

h = average melee dmg per hit
r = average SoR dmg per hit
ws = weapon speed

For me, h and ws are pretty much all the same: 87 dmg and 1.6sec
Only r changes depending on the fight

Normally, over the span of 5 attacks I do:

[5*(h+1.9*r)]/[5*ws] threat

With WF, the following occurs on average over 5 attacks:

[6*(h+1.9*r) + 31*ws]/[5*ws] threat

the 31*ws is the amount of extra dmg per hit that WF gives when it procs. 445 AP ~=31 dps and 31*ws ~= dmg per hit

So then I just subtracted the two to see the increase in threat:

[(h+1.9*r)/ws + 31]/5

That is the extra threat from WF

For me on void reaver, I have 175 average SoR damage (750 spell dmg), so:

[(87 + 1.9*175)/1.6 + 31]/5 = 58.6375 tps increase from WF

WoA gives a flat 63.63 tps increase, so it is technically better for me at the moment, however, WF does scale

The point where WF meets WoA is:

(h + 1.9*r)/ws = 287.15

For me that number is: r = 196, roughly (my h and ws stay pretty much static). So when my SoR hits for more than 196 on average, then WF will benefit me more than WoA.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Postby Dreamcrusher » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:57 am

AFAIK, 600 spelldmg + JoCrusader with a 1.8 speed weapon = 200 dmg SoR ticks
<3
Dreamcrusher
 
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:04 am

Postby jere » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:36 pm

Dreamcrusher wrote:AFAIK, 600 spelldmg + JoCrusader with a 1.8 speed weapon = 200 dmg SoR ticks


Yes, but for a 1.8 speed weapon, your SoR would need to tick for more than 226 on average to make WF > WoA (assuming my hit stays the same at 87)
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Postby Mortehl » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:12 pm

I know WF will benefit you more, but you're not thinking of the big picture. WF would be far more beneficial powering your physical DPS groups when a WoA would be more than sufficient for your needs plus would provide benefit to your warlock who's providing you an imp.
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
Mortehl
Moderator
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Naxx 10 prepping for Naxx 25

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest