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How fast to raiding in wrath?

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Postby Erendis » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:01 am

ARogers wrote:I would love to see some really hard heroics. I though MGT was great since it was harder. A moron in blues could run into Heroic SP and still be fine in there. Heroic MGT actually took a bit of skill, and morons in purples still had some trouble with it. Especially tanks.


I don't know if you ran H-SP in all D3 blues. It's not a walk in the park. I remember the coilfang defenders hit hard enough that a tank could not tank both and since they were un-CCable you had to kite one away.

Or the Double Boglord pull before the first boss in H-UB? I ran most of the heroics on my hunter with a party that had ZERO epics and it was very hard. If my trap broke early it could very well lead to the party wiping.
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Postby guillex » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:07 am

Oh god, I remember that bog lord pull before people were getting out of T4 content.

Man that sucked.

Think we even had a strat that involved having the pet pull one to the entrance, then try to nuke the other one before the first killed the pet and ran back.

Worked once, I think, lmao.
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Postby dmok » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:18 am

Guillex wrote:Oh god, I remember that bog lord pull before people were getting out of T4 content.

Man that sucked.

Think we even had a strat that involved having the pet pull one to the entrance, then try to nuke the other one before the first killed the pet and ran back.

Worked once, I think, lmao.

Damn, that's a smarter way than how we did it. We bounced the second bog lord off 2 hunters feigning death till the first one died.

sucked to be the hunter without deterrence in that one ...
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Postby Tzuma » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:23 am

I have to wonder about those that are stating how easy certain heroics "are"...were you not around during their first versions or before welfare epics were commonplace?

Heroics in D3 gear, or before nerfs, were certainly challenging out the gate, to say that they arent now, a year later, isn't a fair comparison against the LK instances.

Obliviously, theres exceptions to that, with the perfect group you always run with or AQ40 gear you hadnt yet needed to update, but the general population of even mid level raiders did not walk over every heroic from the start.

While I do expect the LK instances to be less difficult than TBC release instances, I still think those entering them first, before purple gear is on farm, are going to see some unique challenges.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:32 am

Tzuma wrote:While I do expect the LK instances to be less difficult than TBC release instances, I still think those entering them first, before purple gear is on farm, are going to see some unique challenges.


Nah
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:36 am

Actually you know what, let me clarify that.

Back when Heroics were hard in BC, they were hard because of the trash. The trash just did junktons of damage. It was silly. The bosses were usually not a big deal in comparison.

In WotLK heroics, the trash is a joke. I've gone through heroics in my barely level 80 tanking gear with 2 heroic level epics (one crafted, one drop) and several L70 epics, and mostly blues/greens laughing at the trash in heroics and pulling like 4 pulls at a time (mostly by accident since I don't know the instances) and having it NOT MATTER AT ALL.

The bosses, however, are fully capable of wiping your group once as you learn how the fight works. They are challenging in the sense that, if you don't know what's coming, you could fuck up and die and wipe. If you do, however, know the fight, then you will generally beat it without issue unless your group is incompetent.

All in all, LK heroics are pretty damn easy, especially in comparison to BC release heroics. Like, severely ridiculously easier.
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Postby Zironic » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:55 am

Well, most of the TBC heroic bosses will also wipe your group if you've never done them before.

I think I'd like more 5 man fights where everyone has to pay attention, Archimonde is one of my favorite fights in the game because it requires flawless performence from everyone. It should be rather easy to scale that kind of fight down to 5 man.
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Postby Jasari » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:12 am

Zironic wrote:Well, most of the TBC heroic bosses will also wipe your group if you've never done them before.

I think I'd like more 5 man fights where everyone has to pay attention, Archimonde is one of my favorite fights in the game because it requires flawless performence from everyone. It should be rather easy to scale that kind of fight down to 5 man.


Yeah, I like 5man bosses that are more than just a tank/spank and require moving and that sort of thing. It'd be kind of cool to have a mini Vashj-like 5man boss with a couple phases and core tossing. I'd imagine something like that would be incredibly frustrating with pug rogues who just want to stabby stabby.

BC boss fights that were fun:

Ramparts Dragon boss (Nazan?)
-the first "stay out of fire" test of BC. Even on regular this was pretty tough when it first came out if you had a group in unenchanted-vanilla-wow greens.

Heroic SH gauntlet
-Pre-welfare epics this was a really tough fight. Especially if you didn't have a pally tank. Another stay out of fire test... I tend to like fire because it separates the fuck-tards from the competent players.

Heroic Mech fire bitch
-I'm coming up with these off the top of my head and for some reason staying out of fire is becoming a common theme.

Heroic Arc last boss
-Finally a fun fight with no fire. I remember how frustrating this fight was back when you needed to do it for TK attunement.

Heroic BM pre any nerfs
-A freakin' hard dungeon peroid.
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Postby majiben » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:19 am

SV had some fun boss fights.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:10 pm

I would hope that starting to raid (e.g. Naxx 10) wouldn't be much harder than heroics, as they have the same budgets on the gear. Heroic gear = Naxx10 gear for budget.
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Postby Derbish » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:25 pm

It's a good bet that all raid content in WotLK will be cleared by the top guilds in less then 2 weeks after release. If you can get 10 competent players at level 80 (2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps), with tanks who are uncritable, you can start Naxx. Previous Naxx experience will make the place a joke. From my limited experience, 25-man Heroic Naxx is easier then 10-man regular.
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Postby Arcand » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:37 pm

Ashmadai wrote:Heroic MrT loot was a little too good for a 5 man really. Some of the stuff in there is better than ZA loot, and it's pretty much all better than Kara.


Well - what were you wearing when you cleared it? I was in maxed-out badge gear and the people I ran with equivalent or better. We got through it without too much trouble, and (appropriately) there were almost no upgrades in there for us. I worked it until I got my trinket and then drifted away...
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:44 pm

I loved pre-nerf Heroics, and I'm sad that not a single heroic in WotLK presents a real challenge. They corrected the problem of loot ilvl, but forgot that Heroics in TBC were originally there to provide raid-level challenges to 5-man groups. Karazhan paled in comparison, and when the new Heroics are easier than the 10-man you end up using the normal 80 instances at 78ish -- something that TBC saw only in beta when the cap was at 67, as everyone on live waited until 70 to attempt them.

With regard to starting Naxx10 gear, yes it is much like Kara in that within a week of hitting 80 you can easily have the gear to tank it all, but the hardest hitting boss will hurt (Patchwerk this time, instead of Prince). Unlike Karazhan, Naxx10 is relatively unbuggy and thoroughly tested, so the problem won't be exacerbated by, say, wiping on Patchwerk during the enrage and having him permanently enraged for the rest of the night's attempts...

As for MgT, that place is terribly designed. If you bring a group with poor CC and roll the wrong combo on the PvP boss, you lose, period. We had a full t6 group in there and got exactly our counter (I believe it was every melee type at once), wiped six times in a row to unavoidable gibs and logged in disgust. At least when we plowed through the horrific pre-Blackheart pulls in Heroic SL wearing T3/blues, we wiped repeatedly because we did something wrong and learned how to better handle the situation.

I retain hope that Blizzard's secret plan is to introduce Elite or Epic difficulty 5-mans after the Ulduar patch, where small groups can earn Badges of Valor for real challenges.
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Postby Rachmaninoff » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:37 pm

I totally agree. heroics airnt heroic anymore more. I upsets me that wrath might be the same. As far as MgT I thought that was a real challenge. yes the 3rd boss is lame, but damn that was fun before they nerfed it the first time.

they only problem with making "epic" lvl's of 5 mans is how do you determain how to make it epic? heroics you need to be honored (oginally revered when they were difficult) in order to enter them. but grinding rep isn't too hard. would someone have to be exaulted and finish a quest? ie kill a boss or several bosses? but that would be an attunement which the casuals would bitch an complain about. any ideas?
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Postby Splug » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:10 pm

Bah, I was tanking heroic shattered halls at 68, in my Dreadnaught. They told me I was daft, but I did it anyway! ...We sank into the swamp. Err- wait, I mean it worked.

On a more serious note, the heroics in wrath are certainly easier, and I'd complain about the ilevel issue with Naxx 10 except that... Naxx is also a joke. So you're looking at two instance sizes that are fairly easy, possibly a guild that's been farming late-game raids for two weeks of complete easymode, and a few slots augmented by the later non-heroic instances. It really isn't bad. (And for the record - I was able to tank 80 heroics using just a full set of saronite crafted armor; death knights don't tend to come in with Sunwell gear. Actually running a tank with pre-existing gear is just going to make things even easier.)

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