Tanking goals post:

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Tanking goals post:

Postby Zironic » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:56 am


One of our goals coming into LK was to "fix" tanking. This included a lot of changes --
-- Making sure threat wasn't so frustrating, especially AE threat
-- Making sure all 4 tanks could handle the same encounters
-- Make sure tanks who were missing key tools got them (I realize the word "key" is open to interpretation)
-- Making sure tanks could upgrade their gear in a reasonable fashion
-- Making sure tanks didn't have to spend all of their talents on pure mitigation
-- Making sure tanks weren't so terrible in PvP or solo situations


I'm hoping they're aware that protection paladins still have someway left to go to fullfill those goals, atleast on point 2(4 horsies),3(Single target taunt) and 6(pvp abilities).

I like where they're going and what they've done so far.
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Postby Jasari » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:08 am

They've pretty much said they're not giving us a single target taunt at this time. As for PvP viability, we're a hell of a lot better than we were pre 3.0, and with the dual spec system coming in, those who really want to PvP can have that as their free off spec.

In general, I'm also very happy with the changes they've made and when we get the incoming 3% mitigation buff, I'll be fine if nothing else changes.
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Postby Torquemada » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:44 am

I'm ripping up most people on the BGs I was doing the other night for my G.N.E.R.D. rage achievement, so I don't know what you mean. And we're even nastier flag carriers to boot.
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Re: Tanking goals post:

Postby Vanifae » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:46 am

Zironic wrote:

One of our goals coming into LK was to "fix" tanking. This included a lot of changes --
-- Making sure threat wasn't so frustrating, especially AE threat
-- Making sure all 4 tanks could handle the same encounters
-- Make sure tanks who were missing key tools got them (I realize the word "key" is open to interpretation)
-- Making sure tanks could upgrade their gear in a reasonable fashion
-- Making sure tanks didn't have to spend all of their talents on pure mitigation
-- Making sure tanks weren't so terrible in PvP or solo situations


I'm hoping they're aware that protection paladins still have someway left to go to fullfill those goals, atleast on point 2(4 horsies),3(Single target taunt) and 6(pvp abilities).

I like where they're going and what they've done so far.

I love PvP now, we are unkillable especially when people clump up and get rocked by Hammer of the Righteous while rocking Seal of Light.
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Postby Ghort » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:50 am

heard rumors they are going to "fix" us again, since people are complaining so much about pallies in pvp - any word on that? (at work)
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Postby majiben » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:53 am

Ghort wrote:heard rumors they are going to "fix" us again, since people are complaining so much about pallies in pvp - any word on that? (at work)
Ret PVP changes (nerfs?) are incomming. There is a lot of complaint about this on the beta forums but at least they have promised not to hurt ret's pve viability when tweaking pvp.
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Postby Zironic » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:56 am

well, the problem pvp wise is that while melee can't touch me at all I still get killed by casters like i was made out of wet tissue.

Imo they should give all the tank classes spell avoidance, would be so awesome if I could block a spells with holy shield. Would also help alot with caster heavy instances like MGT and that kind of bosses (Kael'thas anyone?)
Last edited by Zironic on Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Katerina » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:57 am

Between having to lose stam to get back over 490 defense and having to blow badges on warrior tanking pieces, I was ready to cry into my spicy crawdad, but now find myself filled with glee at pushing 900 dps while tanking :D No, it isn't amazing compared to how the dpsers are doing, but doing dailies isn't at all painful now.

I really like the changes they have made. Would a single target taunt be good - sure. But it is not game breaking to me. I wish unglyphed AS didn't bounce *quite* so far or so wildly, but I can get used to that too. During times when it is not safe to use, I'll just start with HotR instead :)

Honestly, on any fight where there is a fair amount of raid damage I'm worth half a dpser AND half a healer WHILE MTing :D That's pretty sweet - and makes my pally a valuable and viable MT for bosses that I would not have been considered for before. Now our veteran warrior is happily stomping around tanking trash like a crazy man (a role he always felt gimped in compared to pallies).

So, I dunno. It feels fresh, like a new game, but without all the 'what the hell do I do now' of a new game.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:57 am

Its funny, I frankly still dont feel that they have totally accomplished their mission.

They certainly gave our AoE tools to the other tanks. But I see no evidence yet of us receiving the other necessary tools.

We still have no real way to deal with casters, silence effects, fears, or mana-burns.

Warriors and druids are not affected by silence/mana-burns while tanking.

Bears have more hp to deal with incoming spell damage and a talent to minimize damage taken while stunned.

Our dps/tps is drastically affected by all of those cc mechanisms.

So, to be totally honest, while I feel we have progressed in base-line mitigation, I still do not feel we have all the necessary tools.
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Postby Ghort » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:20 am

Katerina wrote:Between having to lose stam to get back over 490 defense and having to blow badges on warrior tanking pieces, I was ready to cry into my spicy crawdad, but now find myself filled with glee at pushing 900 dps while tanking :D No, it isn't amazing compared to how the dpsers are doing, but doing dailies isn't at all painful now.

I really like the changes they have made. Would a single target taunt be good - sure. But it is not game breaking to me. I wish unglyphed AS didn't bounce *quite* so far or so wildly, but I can get used to that too. During times when it is not safe to use, I'll just start with HotR instead :)

Honestly, on any fight where there is a fair amount of raid damage I'm worth half a dpser AND half a healer WHILE MTing :D That's pretty sweet - and makes my pally a valuable and viable MT for bosses that I would not have been considered for before. Now our veteran warrior is happily stomping around tanking trash like a crazy man (a role he always felt gimped in compared to pallies).

So, I dunno. It feels fresh, like a new game, but without all the 'what the hell do I do now' of a new game.


Lol, i wiped my group in H BF because of that.... the caster/orc pull with the warlock pat.... tossed my shield in at the last second to pull the warlock, bounced and hit the last group, and pulled the entire room.... Couldnt stop laughing
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Postby Splug » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:07 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Its funny, I frankly still dont feel that they have totally accomplished their mission.

They certainly gave our AoE tools to the other tanks. But I see no evidence yet of us receiving the other necessary tools.

We still have no real way to deal with casters, silence effects, fears, or mana-burns.

Warriors and druids are not affected by silence/mana-burns while tanking.

Bears have more hp to deal with incoming spell damage and a talent to minimize damage taken while stunned.

Our dps/tps is drastically affected by all of those cc mechanisms.

So, to be totally honest, while I feel we have progressed in base-line mitigation, I still do not feel we have all the necessary tools.
There's a difference between having everything you want and everything you need. The fall-back taunt issue is debatable; I believe the concept is to use hand of protection as a secondary taunt, which while an odd and questionable design, is more reasonable with the giant threat lead tanks have over damage classes now. The horsemen concern only arises from using two paladin tanks, and even then is surmountable if you treat the encounter as an enrage mechanic. Arguably, that's a simpler solution anyway.

Believe it or not, warriors are adversely effected by silences, especially in multi-target scenarios. It's not a complete showstopper, but it does cause a lot of problems. In fact, a pulsed silence such as maiden of virtue's or shahraz's would probably do more harm to a warrior trying to AE tank than a paladin, due to only needing to get off one consecration/holy shield per 8 seconds to get full benefit from either (and continues to provide some source of threat even while silenced), while thunderclap's pulse requires a 6-second refresh, and cannot be used to pick up late arrivals.

To say paladins have not gained anything other than raw mitigation is straight out wrong, to be honest. RD's cooldown was pulled down to match taunt. Shield wall, thunderclap, and shield slam have all been cloned. A tri-target attack resembling cleave is available. Hammer of Justice provides an interrupt, though on a long cooldown. The playstyle in general is much more interactive, and in fact every single target attack in the standard rotation is either new or completely reworked (judgements). The number of warrior skills and abilities that now have paladin counterparts extends far beyond passive abilities. Are there still things other classes have which remain unique? Yes, there are. But if you look at say the druid forums, I recall a post by Snarfsnarf (which I remember because I thought the name was hillarious, not because I know who it is) they're claiming the same thing - paladins took their joerbs. Where warriors gained multi-target abilities, paladins gained single-target abilities. A lot has been standardized, and it's much easier to look at "what other classes got" and ignore what gains have been made locally.

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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:17 pm

Splug wrote:There's a difference between having everything you want and everything you need. The fall-back taunt issue is debatable; I believe the concept is to use hand of protection as a secondary taunt, which while an odd and questionable design, is more reasonable with the giant threat lead tanks have over damage classes now.


That's one that sounds good on paper, but it actually just reinforces the problem.

BoP suffers from every single problem that RD suffers from and then some. If they acknowledge that the issues with RD makes it fail too often, then BoP, by definition, can not be considered a backup for it. If that's the design concept, it truly lacks in common sense.
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Postby Macha » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:33 pm

Splug wrote:There's a difference between having everything you want and everything you need


Easy to say when you have it. Please remove all your single target taunts from all hotkeys/bars/bindings and tell us how it went.

I can already answer you that: A lot harder in several fights.

And that is the complaint. A Paladin needs to add unreasonable complications to their raid when no other tank has to. On the reverse, there is no situation where not having a Paladin creates such an inconvenience.

Even you claim that taking the Paladin turns the fight into a totally different one - the need for a damage race vs what every other tank allows.

That is the complaint. Hand of Protection is, of course, not a reasonable solution, because for example during the horsemen, it is not possible to build aggro on both mobs like that. Nor is it during Gothy.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:42 pm

How many guilds will be running with just two paladin tanks? In reference to Four Horsemen.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:49 pm

Vanifae wrote:How many guilds will be running with just two paladin tanks? In reference to Four Horsemen.


How many will be running with just two warrior tanks? Or two druids? Or two Death Knights?

The answer: Doesn't matter because they said you should be able to do that.
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