Dual Spec Ghostcrawler post

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Obrimos » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:28 am

Sheherezade wrote:
Levantine wrote:
Sheherezade wrote:Sharing? If you have 2 dps guys/gals that want to come to the raid and do equal dps, do you bring the one that does dps, or the one that can dps and respec healing halfway through on that raiddamage-heavy fight?


Apparently I misread your post.


no, it was I that wrote it badly, lol

Sharing? If you have 2 dps guys/gals that want to come to the raid and do equal dps, do you bring the one that does dps, or the one that can dps and respec healing halfway through the instance for that raiddamage-heavy fight?

now it's correct! :)


That's not a valid concern for a properly organized Raid.

A) You bring consistent, good players. Regardless of what class they enjoy playing.

B) You always bring enough Healers and enough Tanks for the entire Raid instance.

C) There is never enough DPS.

DPS shouldn't be respeccing healing halfway through the Raid. If they are, that means that one of 3 things has happened; Blizzard designed the Raid poorly, the Raid didn't have enough Healers, or one of the Healers had to leave early.
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Postby Zironic » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:36 am

Vioarr wrote:
And what about the poisons to slow cast time, healing effect, etc?

I don't think that Rogues have too much to worry about. In 25 man raids there is going to be room for many classes. I would think that Rogues would be happiest about this update, because from what I know (my friend is one, admittedly I don't know much about them) PVE and PVP specs are extremely different, and many don't like to raid because they have to pay to swap.


http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/

DPS shouldn't be respeccing healing halfway through the Raid. If they are, that means that one of 3 things has happened; Blizzard designed the Raid poorly, the Raid didn't have enough Healers, or one of the Healers had to leave early.


In my experience all 3 of those happen alot :P
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Postby Obrimos » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:40 am

Zironic wrote:
Vioarr wrote:
DPS shouldn't be respeccing healing halfway through the Raid. If they are, that means that one of 3 things has happened; Blizzard designed the Raid poorly, the Raid didn't have enough Healers, or one of the Healers had to leave early.


In my experience all 3 of those happen alot :P


I've had problems with my DPS being stacked wrong (in ZA, for example, with too much melee on Eagle), but I've never seen a raid designed poorly if you're following Blizz's raid ideology.
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Postby majiben » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:50 am

Obrimos wrote:
Zironic wrote:
Vioarr wrote:
DPS shouldn't be respeccing healing halfway through the Raid. If they are, that means that one of 3 things has happened; Blizzard designed the Raid poorly, the Raid didn't have enough Healers, or one of the Healers had to leave early.


In my experience all 3 of those happen alot :P


I've had problems with my DPS being stacked wrong (in ZA, for example, with too much melee on Eagle), but I've never seen a raid designed poorly if you're following Blizz's raid ideology.
To add to this, respecs are more likely if you have a poorly stacked raid. For instance, on Naj if you had a healing corp composed of 4-5 holy paladins, 2 resto druids and a CoH priest you could easily find yourself overwhelmed with topping off the raid before poppping the bubble. In that case having a SP spec CoH would be a boon but unnecessary if you had changed out a paladin or two for a shaman or CoH priest before hand. Basically if you take care in your raid comp you are unlikely to need to abuse this change.

Additionally, you won't ever need more than 1-2 healing capable dps even in the worse case senario. Promising 12% of your dps spots to any of 4 classes isn't that outrageous anyways. The pure dps classes will be brought on the basis of their dps ability rather than their class. Sounds like working as intended.
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Postby Vioarr » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:57 am

Zironic wrote:
Vioarr wrote:
And what about the poisons to slow cast time, healing effect, etc?

I don't think that Rogues have too much to worry about. In 25 man raids there is going to be room for many classes. I would think that Rogues would be happiest about this update, because from what I know (my friend is one, admittedly I don't know much about them) PVE and PVP specs are extremely different, and many don't like to raid because they have to pay to swap.


http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/



Thanks for the link to website on raid composition. I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=e5u52dhgo67bfimntso6jlkpq000000000000000

4 tanks, 7 healers, 13 DPS oriented classes. Of course certain specs are not going to be on or able to come. How often do you have over 25 people at any given time wanting to go to a raid? Sure, there are 30 total specs that can be online at any given time, and 25 raid spots. Do you really have a guild that has a spec for each class? Usually the members in the guild spec for their utility (that means that you end up having groups of classes with a specific spec).

On top of that, it's a pretty well known fact that certain classes are PVP oriented. Why would a subtlety rogue go to a raid? The best thing about this is that Rogues can have a pve and pvp spec that they can swap to if they want to.

I don't want to seem rude but as is the case with many updates in MMO's, the QQ's far outweigh the positive comments.
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Postby Zironic » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:04 am

Well, instead of listing what class can replace what part of a rogue can do I thought you could just look yourself. There are very very few unique buffs left in the game which is generally a good thing.

The goal is "Bring 25 good people, not X and Y classes" which I agree with.

Anyhow, the point was just showing that there is nothing that makes a raidleader think "oh, if only I had a rogue" but a raidleader might think "It would be nice with a more flexible raid"

It'll be interesting to see how the high high end guilds end up handling it, i suspect the normal guilds will do what is intended, aka just get the better player.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:13 am

Zironic wrote:It'll be interesting to see how the high high end guilds end up handling it, i suspect the normal guilds will do what is intended, aka just get the better player.


The "high high end" guilds will take the better player also ;)
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Postby Vioarr » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:18 am

Zironic wrote:Well, instead of listing what class can replace what part of a rogue can do I thought you could just look yourself. There are very very few unique buffs left in the game which is generally a good thing.

The goal is "Bring 25 good people, not X and Y classes" which I agree with.

Anyhow, the point was just showing that there is nothing that makes a raidleader think "oh, if only I had a rogue" but a raidleader might think "It would be nice with a more flexible raid"

It'll be interesting to see how the high high end guilds end up handling it, i suspect the normal guilds will do what is intended, aka just get the better player.


Ok, so now I see why you posted it. Looking through the abilities listed on the right hand side of the screen, there are a couple instances (Sunder, poison, etc) where the classes overlap. This is a good thing; no one class should have a stranglehold on a given position in a raid (Irony to post something like this on a website where we were viewed as sub par tanks for quite some time). The RL should have the ability to make things more flexible and take who signs up. And this is just looking at it from an objective level. Let's say you have a raid tonight, and you have a Combat Rogue who has been raiding consistently for months, and a MS warrior who has not been raiding. You have everything else you need for the raid already. Who do you choose? I'd pick the Rogue based on the premise that they come to raids more often, and logically it makes sense because if they get an upgrade, they're going to put it to more good use for the guild.

I sincerely doubt that any guild will look at their XPerl/AGUnitframes/thrillerprisondance and see a bunch of pink, royal blue and orange bars. If that's the case then I wouldn't want to raid anyways.

And for the record, if you think that this is bad, imagine playing a class that you like and you literally have -no- viability. FFXI Dark Knight anyone? (at least until Kraken Club DRK came around).
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Postby Brute » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:49 am

I fully intend to roll need on gear that is for the spec i'm not using, but have. I'm sure I'll show mercy frequently, but I wouldn't have that other spec if I didn't plan on using it.

I think this is a very good thing. THE ONLY reason I have an Arms warrior has been to avoid respec costs. THE ONLY. I like ret but I liked prot more and I got groups easier, and hell if I'm going to respec all the time just so I can BG when I want. So I just switch to the warrior, problem solved.

Now, when the warrior needs some badges because they put PVP gear as a PVE reward, he can switch to his tanking spec without costing me 10 dailies. Likewise, my paladin will finally get to have some non-lolprot arena/bg fun.

People who are against this can just go jump off a building as far as I'm concerned... Only 4 classes in this game are non-hybrids (rogue, mage, lock, hunter). EVERYONE ELSE is a hybrid, be it dps/tank, dps/heal, or all 3. I don't think its a bad thing to be able to pick your two favorite specs and be able to switch.

I also don't think its a bad thing to have to pay 50g if you want to move points around. THAT in my book is A-OK. That's what respec should be imo.

When the game first came out, PVP was not nearly as emphasized, and a lot of specs just flat sucked, and some others were good for everything. Remember when all warriors were 31/5/15? Thus, you didn't really NEED to respec except to move a few points around. Now, later in the game's development, PVP is 50% of the game just about, and every spec is viable in some venue. I think its a good move.
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Postby mavfin » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:37 pm

Shoju wrote:I love this change.

My guild is fairly casual when we raid. We currently (and once we get people with multiple 80s) have people sign up. We then inv people to the raid so we can decide who is doin' what. If we end up with more tanks than healers, I can flop speccs to holy, and heal. If we don't have enough tanks, I can stay prot.

On my mage, it means that I can stay frost for trash then switch to arcane for bosses ( <I will NEVER spec fire> ).

On my rogue..... yeah I just don't care.


All in all tho, dual speccs gets a 10/10 from me.


Most of us in the guild are pretty excited about this. I'll take my shaman elem/resto when it comes, and the feral will be bear/cat.

This change really fits the Lurker way, especially with some of the really good players in the guild who can play any class they try really well.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:43 pm

Obrimos wrote:B) You always bring enough Healers and enough Tanks for the entire Raid instance.

Impossible in Sunwell, pre-nerf.

Kalec required 8-9 due to portal mechanics (9 unless you were godly).

Brute required 7 or you couldn't hit the DPS benchmark

Kalec required 8-9

Twins required 11 or everyone died

M'uru had to be done with 6 or you couldn't hit the DPS benchmark

IMO: Shitty raid instance design. But dual-spec covers a multitude of sins in raid-instance design. Merging nuker/healer gear covers the rest.

Same as your bestiality druids are sometimes bear tanking and sometimes kitty-dpsing, your caster classes will sometimes be healing and sometimes nuking (in mostly the same gear).

You can like the change or loathe it, but you can't alter it, so get used to it.
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Postby mavfin » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:53 pm

Knaughty wrote:[You can like the change or loathe it, but you can't alter it, so get used to it.


Pretty much. The game changes. You can change with it, or quit. Your choice.

(I like it. Prot/Fury dual spec warrior, anyone?)
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