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Diminishing Returns on Avoidance

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Postby Eanin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:01 am



Notice how it doesn't include chance to be missed?
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Postby Winchester » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:13 am

there is no way currently, or atleast when i posted the thing to calculate the diminishing returns of miss chance.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:14 am

It's because you cannot know your effective miss chance hence you cannot really make any theory on that.
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Postby Legionp » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:56 pm

So I've been looking at the numbers here, and I'm trying to figure out at which point it is more beneficial to use parry rating on your gear rather than dodge rating.

Assuming you are a level 70 paladin with zero agility and exactly 490 defense, you will need to have 305 dodge rating on your gear before 1 point of parry rating is more beneficial. Is this accurate?

Why are people talking about using the parry trinket from ZA? It is only a difference of 38 dodge rating vs 45 parry rating. If you are the 305 dodge, the point were Dodge and Parry are the same, there total difference is .21% avoidance in the two trinkets (Parry winning). Is the armor bonus that much better than +300 dodge (which is 9.109% Dodge when starting at 305). I've heard that the armor bonus is 2.5% DR.

No matter how I look at it, the Pocket Watch is still better than the ZA trinket in all cases (at level 70 - Haven't run the numbers at 80)

Am I way off here? Unless people have much more than 300 Dodge rating on their gear, I don't see how.

TL;DR : Why take the ZA trinket? Maths please.
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Postby Obrimos » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:19 pm

Legionp wrote:So I've been looking at the numbers here, and I'm trying to figure out at which point it is more beneficial to use parry rating on your gear rather than dodge rating.

Assuming you are a level 70 paladin with zero agility and exactly 490 defense, you will need to have 305 dodge rating on your gear before 1 point of parry rating is more beneficial. Is this accurate?

Why are people talking about using the parry trinket from ZA? It is only a difference of 38 dodge rating vs 45 parry rating. If you are the 305 dodge, the point were Dodge and Parry are the same, there total difference is .21% avoidance in the two trinkets (Parry winning). Is the armor bonus that much better than +300 dodge (which is 9.109% Dodge when starting at 305). I've heard that the armor bonus is 2.5% DR.

No matter how I look at it, the Pocket Watch is still better than the ZA trinket in all cases (at level 70 - Haven't run the numbers at 80)

Am I way off here? Unless people have much more than 300 Dodge rating on their gear, I don't see how.

TL;DR : Why take the ZA trinket? Maths please.


Once Parry Rating and Dodge Rating are the same value, Parry gets a little more valuable since it creates parry-haste.
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Postby Legionp » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:27 pm

Obrimos wrote:Once Parry Rating and Dodge Rating are the same value, Parry gets a little more valuable since it creates parry-haste.


Which is minimal with SoV on single targets anyway, right?
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Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:15 pm

I have 325 dodge rating right now and that's without having the pocket watch equiped. In endgame, 95% of all avoidance gear has dodge, I'm actually contemplating on letting T6 shoulders pass in favor of keeping T5...
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Postby Legionp » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:25 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:I have 325 dodge rating right now and that's without having the pocket watch equiped. In endgame, 95% of all avoidance gear has dodge, I'm actually contemplating on letting T6 shoulders pass in favor of keeping T5...


Well actually since you have 49 parry rating, the PW is still better :D

I assumed pure dodge with no parry.
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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:53 pm

Legionp wrote:So I've been looking at the numbers here, and I'm trying to figure out at which point it is more beneficial to use parry rating on your gear rather than dodge rating.

Assuming you are a level 70 paladin with zero agility and exactly 490 defense, you will need to have 305 dodge rating on your gear before 1 point of parry rating is more beneficial. Is this accurate?

Why are people talking about using the parry trinket from ZA? It is only a difference of 38 dodge rating vs 45 parry rating. If you are the 305 dodge, the point were Dodge and Parry are the same, there total difference is .21% avoidance in the two trinkets (Parry winning). Is the armor bonus that much better than +300 dodge (which is 9.109% Dodge when starting at 305). I've heard that the armor bonus is 2.5% DR.

No matter how I look at it, the Pocket Watch is still better than the ZA trinket in all cases (at level 70 - Haven't run the numbers at 80)

Am I way off here? Unless people have much more than 300 Dodge rating on their gear, I don't see how.

TL;DR : Why take the ZA trinket? Maths please.
I have 236 dodge rating on my gear with a mix of badge gear and ZA. The parry trinket provides more passive avoidance for not because parry rating is better than dodge but because there is more parry rating on the ZA trinket than the pocket watch. The on use effect took a hit too. On my character it's only worth 10% dodge down from 15%. Couple that with lower character avoidance, the new bubblewall, weaker mobs and having passive avoidance can be seen as better.

That said the defense trinket from hydross is probably the best on use trinket now.
Last edited by majiben on Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:58 pm

There is a lot more gear with Parry rating in WotLK.

Besides, crunching numbers shows that past a certain point, and its not that far in, dodge or parry rating start to lose out to defense rating, at least, if no one can prove that there is diminishing returns on Miss from defense.

There is no way to currently determine chance to be missed via the wow API, or to get a number for total pure avoidance.

Because of this, currently, there is no way to determine whether Miss from defense is subject to diminishing returns or if it is, what the magic Cap number is.

In any event, given the DR is calculated seperately for each pure avoidance stat, if there is not a very low cap on miss, then stacking defense becomes your BEST option for paladins and warriors.

Keep in mind, that defense rating only provides a bit less pure avoidance than dodge rating even at the start (think it was like .0528 vs .0507 at 70, .0254 vs .0244 at 80) before diminishing returns kicks in...

If we could determine the existance/value of the Cap for Miss, then, it would be simple to calculate exactly what rating was best at any given point.
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Postby Legionp » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:40 pm

Majiben wrote: The parry trinket provides more passive stamina for not because parry rating is better than dodge but because there is more parry rating on the ZA trinket than the pocket watch.


Yeah, but my point is that even after DR, the 38 Dodge is still more avoidance than the 45 parry rating in most cases (unless you've stacked large amounts of dodge, have little defense, and little to no parry).
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Postby majiben » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:07 pm

Legionp wrote:
Majiben wrote: The parry trinket provides more passive avoidance for not because parry rating is better than dodge but because there is more parry rating on the ZA trinket than the pocket watch.


Yeah, but my point is that even after DR, the 38 Dodge is still more avoidance than the 45 parry rating in most cases (unless you've stacked large amounts of dodge, have little defense, and little to no parry).
If by most cases you mean you mean a t4 tank. Mid to high level teirs have a lot dodge rating naturally. Also the amount of defense you have has no bearing on how useful dodge is compared to parry due to defense adding equally for both. Before DR the ZA trinket is 1.91%avoidance while the kara trinket is 2.01% avoidance. It really doesn't take that much dodge rating to make the ZA trinket win. For tanks capable of doing ZJ in pre 3.0 ZA the parry trinket will beat the pocket watch for passive avoidance 95% of the time.
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Postby Legionp » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:32 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Using the formula and constants from the EJ thread, 17.97% dodge -> 15.49% after DR.
However, the DR is not applied to contribution from seperate ratings, it is applied to your total % dodge (after base + talents). If you take your dodge % when naked, subtract it from dodge % when geared, then pass it through the formula you'll see the actual change. Taking your dodge rating alone and calculating it will give an incorrect result.


Hmm, I'll have to check my math tomorrow when I get home (so I can also see my own character sheet in tank gear).
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Postby Legionp » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:32 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Using the formula and constants from the EJ thread, 17.97% dodge -> 15.49% after DR.
However, the DR is not applied to contribution from seperate ratings, it is applied to your total % dodge (after base + talents). If you take your dodge % when naked, subtract it from dodge % when geared, then pass it through the formula you'll see the actual change. Taking your dodge rating alone and calculating it will give an incorrect result.


Hmm, I'll have to check my math tomorrow when I get home (so I can also see my own character sheet in tank gear).
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Postby Modal » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:51 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:at least, if no one can prove that there is diminishing returns on Miss from defense.


This is not just speculation, it's from a blue post. Now, blues are of course not infallible, but that's still a strong reason to think that miss % is also subject to diminishing returns.
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