Sunwell in 3.0.2 (TL;DR: Nerfwell)

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:41 pm

inthedrops wrote:KJ had a lot of things that made him hard. One of which was a very strict DPS requirement to get him from one phase to the next without running out of shields. The DPS check for this fight is really what made it so challenging as a whole (individually people had their own challenges I'm sure).

I can't tell you how many times we called out to wipe it because one dps died early and it was better to just give up and start again than to be 5 seconds too late for the shield.

I can imagine, we've done the same thing many times on pre-nerf M'uru. One dead DPS was "inc wipe".

The DPS requirement for post-nerf-KJ, feels more like progression Felmyst. So long as you're not slacking, and not too many DPS dies early, you can meet the DPS check, just. So it's just the co-ordination and individual responsibility checks.

Compare M'uru. Pre-nerf, the DPS check for getting Sentinels down & still managing to AE the spawns every second sentinel was a huge challenge. Having any time left over to DPS M'uru himself was very unsual. Post nerf... I solo the spawns, we had 4? DPS on M'uru full-time, instead of 1, and melee were standing around for 15 seconds a side waiting for the next humanoids to turn up. And that was with two extra healers in-raid.
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Postby inthedrops » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:21 pm

When people say M'uru is harder than KJ it's probably referring to before the first and second nerfs (I believe the aura used to cause pushback, and then sometime later they reduced his hit points). We didn't kill M'uru until the week they changed his hit points but we got him to 20% or so P2 before that. I did not experience M'uru when his aura caused pushback.

I think both M'uru and KJ were on equal ground just before the patch. We spent roughly the same amount of time on both but I imagine we'd have spent another week or so on M'uru were it not for that first HP nerf. I think we had about 300 attempts, getting in a few more than 20 attempts on a dedicated night. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 to 60 hours. I agree that was a little too much and the HP nerf was welcome.

We probably spent around 40 to 50 hours on KJ before getting the kill. Someone here just mentioned on their first night doing KJ after the patch that they got him to 5% in 5 hours of learning.
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:29 pm

inthedrops wrote:We probably spent around 40 to 50 hours on KJ before getting the kill. Someone here just mentioned on their first night doing KJ after the patch that they got him to 5% in 5 hours of learning.

That was me - post-nerf KJ 3% after 5 hours. A tiny bit of luck on one or two attempts would have been a kill - had him under 10% after maybe 3 hours?

I think we'd probably had 100 or so M'uru attempts - 2.4.3 era. Had him to 21%, P1. No push-back, and the HP nerfs in-place, but he was still hard.
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Postby Kethion » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:05 pm

Never tried M'uru before today and 3 shot him XD Then we just ran into KJ's room and killed the three adds with no research or organization. What a night >.>
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Postby Kayoto » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:12 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Kayoto wrote:That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.

Only reflections that killed me were mages - but I think we were down a healer or two.



Either your healers are better than mine or you're extremely lucky, the pre-nerf Rogues used to hit for 3k mainhand hits, 3.2k hemo hits, and 1.5k offhand hits. If they got a lucky string of hits (with four on me) the burst was ridiculous, on a couple attempts I looked back in the log and I took something like 22k damage in 1.5 seconds. :P
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Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:18 pm

Kayoto wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
Kayoto wrote:That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.

Only reflections that killed me were mages - but I think we were down a healer or two.


Either your healers are better than mine or you're extremely lucky, the pre-nerf Rogues used to hit for 3k mainhand hits, 3.2k hemo hits, and 1.5k offhand hits. If they got a lucky string of hits (with four on me) the burst was ridiculous, on a couple attempts I looked back in the log and I took something like 22k damage in 1.5 seconds. :P

I never did him pre-nerf, we got our progression M'uru kill on Wednesday, tried KJ last night for the first time (got him to 3%).

Rogues don't seem dangerous with 1k BV in my balanced tanking gear.

In any case, I'm often only tanking 3, our bestiality druid usually grabs the 4th and tows it over.

Mages can kill me if the healers are dead/distracted. Melee mobs don't seem to hit very hard.
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Postby Tyaera » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:26 pm

While I haven't done KJ, I can attest to the increased amount of BV we have drastically reducing my damage intake. I went from 214 BV to over 750, and its basically trivialized all trash anywhere ever.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:08 pm

Rogues have never burst me nearly as much as casters, maybe your back was turned? That's usually what causes me to die on melee.

Anyhoo, yep, KJ is definitely possible with 0 darknesses. We did one attempt and took him past 55% before a single Darkness, but then wiped because people stopped killing orbs. Went back, he did his Darkness at 56% and never again.

Likewise, M'uru is possible without a second sentinel. We barely missed the mark and got an extra one, but still killed him in 2 minutes with one death.
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Postby Cakes » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:02 am

Knaughty wrote:Except because we don't have the DPS to burn through the phases that fast, we're doing it the same way as you're describing, pre-nerf.

We might be doing 85-55 in two collapses instead of three - we're certainly not doing it in zero. After one night we're usually managing to get to 55% with 25 alive, though we have a couple of slow learners who might fail at collapse sometimes.

55-25 is (for us) a real nail-biter - will we do enough DPS - will people dodge meteors - will the shield orbs die fast enough - will Knaughty pick up the reflections fast enough, etc, etc. The 30%-25% bit is diabolical - that's where most attempts are falling apart.

It's pretty clear that if we'd had a month's practice on it that the current version would be trivial. But given we don't HAVE a month to practice, the tuning seems about right to us.

Remember we were only 4/6 + partial M'uru.

People who are fresh to him will still be facing a decent challenge. It took us 5 hours of attempts to get him to 3%. It's probably not as hard as Vashj, but there's very little time to get it done, it needs to be easy enough that you don't need 25 people being perfect to get it done. All alive at 55%, maybe 20/25 at 25% should be doable.

It certainly doesn't feel as nerfed as M'uru. M'uru was HARD, I've heard more than one person say M'uru is harder than KJ. M'uru now feels trivial. KJ isn't trivial.


Oh, don't mistake me, I don't mean to trivialize killing KJ, he's still difficult. As inthedrops said, people that spent weeks learning him had many, many attempts where you just called it if DPS went down early in p3 or p4. We eventually overcompensated by sacking a healer and bringing in an extra dps (from 8 to 7 healers) and our worries went away so that we could get a stable p3. What I am saying is that these people got used to having either a near perfect kill or no kill at all. We sometimes spent very trying nights where we wiped stupidly in phase 1, which we now just run in and aoe down.
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Postby sanctifico » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:34 am

I died a little inside this morning, a guild on my server (merger of two guilds who were floundering in BT and never got Kalecgos down until tuesday) managed to get their first brutallus kill in 35mins.

We couldent his SW because of massive lag (server died again last night for 30mins) but were going on sunday, I expect we will clear to twins in less than an hour, our best try on "the LEDGE" was 55% but then we died due to conflag on a DC'd player and called it a day (pre patch)

Imo we'll have KJ down this week, if not immediatly after reset (depends on how stable the server is!)
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Postby Mithos » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:19 pm

Thursday's raid was fun.

We did M'uru with 2 tanks and 6 healers (I was at the tim oeffline screaming at the WORLD SERVER IS DOWN message I continuously recieved, gg Cyclone-EU, was listening on TS). Popped hero whilst M'uru was at about 50-60% or whatever and absolutely raped him. Dead way before 2nd sent. Killed the adds whilst Entropius was spawning then owned him.

You know what made it really fun? We had to adjust the strategy to have a flawless wipe recovery fallback, because if ANYONE released they crashed out and joiend the people in the world server is down club. Ofc, it only took 2 tries but it was still interesting to setup. Think we had 1 warr pick up the near door adds and the far 3 were MD'd, with everyone gathering close to the door somewhere. The other tank on sents + spawns + entropius. Had to shield wall the transistion as he was tanking a sent and entropius lol.

Killed KJ after 3 tries. We had basically perfected it pre 3.0 bar practice on p5 and would have killed him on the last raid before 3.0 if we had the right DPSers about :( (internet issues), so we just turned up and rofl spanked him. Me and the warr tank killed the last reflections by ourselves rather quickly, I genuinly thought they were being DPSd but when I asked the leader said "noone is on them" and there were no debuffs or animations except our own on them heh >.<.

Tbh, we could bitch and moan about how much it is stupid they nerfed it, but tbh it is quite fun and it's good to embrace the fun side after working so goddamn hard on bosses such as M'uru. Will probs get old in 2 weeks or so but we only have to survive 3 more zerg clears, and there's always altwell!

Edit: Yeah cakes p1 wipe nights suck lol, but no more \o/!

You know the best thing about this patch? It is now a meaningful use of time and mana to, when running past a trash mob, hit it a bit, instead of just lolling about.
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Postby Morganim » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:19 am

Kayoto wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
Kayoto wrote:That's because there are only two differences between pre and post nerf KJ:

1) Lower chance of your reflections tank dying to Rogues.

Only reflections that killed me were mages - but I think we were down a healer or two.



Either your healers are better than mine or you're extremely lucky, the pre-nerf Rogues used to hit for 3k mainhand hits, 3.2k hemo hits, and 1.5k offhand hits. If they got a lucky string of hits (with four on me) the burst was ridiculous, on a couple attempts I looked back in the log and I took something like 22k damage in 1.5 seconds. :P


I never ever died from rogues in the 4 weeks we took to learn it.
With the gear you should have up to the point of KJ the melee adds all hit like girls. In fact the only adds i ever died from where the mages when i got 4 high end fireballs all at the one time. And paladins when i either got stunned and no dispell or my healers got double stunned
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Postby sanctifico » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:40 am

:/ brutallus down in 3min 2sec, and both me and the threat stealing warrior (lol) had 2x more threat than the nearest dps from the start.

felmyst down in one flight phase.

just mental fast.

fuck all has dropped for me tonight tho
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Postby Markoh » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:03 pm

I can't really decide how I feel about the changes. We took a break 2 weeks ago and are waiting till this first week is over until we clear sunwell again. I guess knocking the place out in less than 2 hours will be nice, along with the changes I might get to be more than a glorified trash tank after kalecgos.

But I really loved the challenge of the place and the idea of it being dumbed down is kind of upsetting.


On the subject of rogue adds you probably either had your back turned like psiven said or maybe you just got really unlucky with mitigation. Another thing to consider is your healer(s) may have been dodging metoers/having to move b/c of blooms.
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Postby sanctifico » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:49 pm

This is stupid, just killed Muru on third EVER try.

on KJ now.


edit:
33% on KJ with only 4-5 tries.

down tomorrow.

Im guessing other guilds who were on/at twins are having the same?
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