Mitigation Comparisons – 4 tanks

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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:00 am

Have you done (or seen perhaps) any work on deathknight threat?

I was adding to the pally/warrior threat comparison I did. I went on beta and worked out all the bear innate threats and coeffs etc. Much to my surprise, their single target threat was rather low, when I've heard beta reports that’s its really good.

However, I am assuming that druids are wearing what I'd define as "bear gear". Higher stamina leather, with tank neck/rings/cloak/trinkets/enchants/weapon. Doing this it would appear (fallibility aside!) they're a) too strong in mitigation and b) weaker in threat (relatively). It occurred to me that if they were in "cat gear" or more accurately, rogue gear, it would actively balance both areas. While they have the option of all that mitigation, they risk falling below the now expected insurmountable threat line.

It's possible I'm just wrong, missed a decimal place somewhere, but it makes sense in both sets of theory that they’re balanced around, and expected to wear dps gear while tanking.

Looking at the frost DK numbers above, I think we'd agree that their avoidance mitigation is too high comparatively, but again, this deals with mitigation in isolation. The spec assumes mid blood rather than deep frost, sacrificing threat for survival. Perhaps DKs are expected to spec for damage in the same way druids may be gearing for it.
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Postby Zironic » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:43 am

If I've understood blizzard correctly there is no such thing as "tanking" leather anymore. This is part of their effort of making more people want the pieces of loot that drop.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:45 am

Zironic wrote:If I've understood blizzard correctly there is no such thing as "tanking" leather anymore. This is part of their effort of making more people want the pieces of loot that drop.

I'd find that hugely frustrating. The value of a dps leather gear in terms of mitigation will be largely random. If the difference between a t7 and t6 piece happens to be soley ap/crit/haste/ap then its not an upgrade unless threat is an issue.

If I'm wrong here (and it is in all fairness an idea I had yesterday to explain the wierd numbers I was looking at), then druid tanks are essentially looking at arena gear.
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Postby Zironic » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:14 am

Well, you can compare the pvp and pve sets :
http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=41660:4 ... 0493:40494

Differences:
24 Agi
49 Sta
286 Resilience

vs

48 Armor Pen
82 Expertise
268 Melee AP
36 Melee Crit
37 Melee Haste

(That's about 10% more stamina for the pvp set)
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Postby dmok » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:21 am

Zironic wrote:If I've understood blizzard correctly there is no such thing as "tanking" leather anymore. This is part of their effort of making more people want the pieces of loot that drop.

I still think that the "tanking" leather will exist .. but not to the extent it does now. Like it won't include extra armour or defense, but will have more stam and agility as opposed to AP and Crit. It will therefore still be useable and useful for rogues, but slightly more designed for druid tanks.

At least, this is how I see them fixing the itemization values.
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Postby Deathwing » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:23 am

ziggyunderslashone wrote:
Zironic wrote:If I've understood blizzard correctly there is no such thing as "tanking" leather anymore. This is part of their effort of making more people want the pieces of loot that drop.

I'd find that hugely frustrating. The value of a dps leather gear in terms of mitigation will be largely random. If the difference between a t7 and t6 piece happens to be soley ap/crit/haste/ap then its not an upgrade unless threat is an issue.

If I'm wrong here (and it is in all fairness an idea I had yesterday to explain the wierd numbers I was looking at), then druid tanks are essentially looking at arena gear.


It is highly frustrating(I played a feral tank for some of BC). No confidence in their ability to properly handle itemization is one of the reasons I'm rerolling a DK. For example, ferals hit the armor cap, they'll have to switch out their high AC non-leather items. As you said, the next tier of dps rings could have less agility on it:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37642 This item's ilvl 200

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40717 This item's ilvl 213

It's basically Badge of Tenacity all over again. Too much emphasis on a few stats causes a small pool of viable items that upgrades aren't available every tier.

Also, you are right on at least one slot, Ziggy. Best tank belt comes from arena. PvPing to get tank gear is just maddening.
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Postby Zironic » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:32 am

Here is a comparison of all the ilevel 213 (25 man raid) leather melee chests that exist:
http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=40319;4 ... 60&focus=3

As you can see it's not possible to get an item that has alot more stamina, (other then the resist gear), but it's also interesting to see that you can't even get a lot less stamina.

Isn't this the level 213 tank ring?
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40370
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40074
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Postby majiben » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:44 am

Zironic wrote:Here is a comparison of all the ilevel 213 (25 man raid) leather melee chests that exist:
http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=40319;4 ... 60&focus=3

As you can see it's not possible to get an item that has alot more stamina, (other then the resist gear), but it's also interesting to see that you can't even get a lot less stamina.

Isn't this the level 213 tank ring?
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40370
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40074
I'm tempted to say that http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40074 is a dps ring that can be put into service as a tanking ring in a pinch. Yes it has a lot of agility but from a druid tank's pov it has a lot of wasted stats. Toss into the mix that druids are the EH tanks in Wotlk and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40370 is itemized a lot better.
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Postby Deathwing » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:52 am

I was using non-AC rings on purpose, Zironic, to prove a point on how bad the itemization can be between tiers.
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Postby Zironic » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:57 am

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40074
is much more inline with your 10 man ring then the one you used, but mitigationwise i'm afraid it's more of a sidegrade then an upgrade. Then again you're not actually meant to progress to 25 man from 10 man anymore, I think we have to wait for the 2nd tier of raiding to be released to get a good item to compare against.
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Postby Sëryph » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:27 pm

ziggyunderslashone wrote:Have you done (or seen perhaps) any work on deathknight threat?

I was adding to the pally/warrior threat comparison I did. I went on beta and worked out all the bear innate threats and coeffs etc. Much to my surprise, their single target threat was rather low, when I've heard beta reports that’s its really good.

However, I am assuming that druids are wearing what I'd define as "bear gear". Higher stamina leather, with tank neck/rings/cloak/trinkets/enchants/weapon. Doing this it would appear (fallibility aside!) they're a) too strong in mitigation and b) weaker in threat (relatively). It occurred to me that if they were in "cat gear" or more accurately, rogue gear, it would actively balance both areas. While they have the option of all that mitigation, they risk falling below the now expected insurmountable threat line.

It's possible I'm just wrong, missed a decimal place somewhere, but it makes sense in both sets of theory that they’re balanced around, and expected to wear dps gear while tanking.

Looking at the frost DK numbers above, I think we'd agree that their avoidance mitigation is too high comparatively, but again, this deals with mitigation in isolation. The spec assumes mid blood rather than deep frost, sacrificing threat for survival. Perhaps DKs are expected to spec for damage in the same way druids may be gearing for it.


I haven't seen any DPS SS's that give good numbers yet.

As for whether DK's whould be intended to wear DPS gear that seems highly unlikely considering our Tank T7 set.

I would agree with you to some degree on Druids though I personally detest Blizzards direction with them. It is ludicrous to make them spec specifically to either tank or dps and then not give any specific tank gear.

I doubt I will ever level my druid at this point to be honest. I have a feeling that when they finally "balance" druids so they aren't the best tanks at the beginning, as GC has said they will, that you will see less and less druids as MT's or even tanks at all, the further into Wrath we go.
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Postby Sheherezade » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:07 am

DKs will not be using dps gear for tanking, we still need the dodge/parry/and most important off all: the +def!
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:45 am

Sëryph wrote:As for whether DK's whould be intended to wear DPS gear that seems highly unlikely considering our Tank T7 set.

I didn't mean to suggest dks would be using dps plate. Theres enough defensive gear about to suggest its intended use by the three plate tank classes, along the def requirements involved.

What I mean is that the avoidance I'm showing here is, while not exclusively, but significantly derived from a spec that, quite honestly, I expect no one may ever use

I'll do some searching, but If I'm right, I'd expect dks to want/need to spec far more dps oriented than assumed here.
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:00 am

Having Played around with DK threat for a while, and indeed applying common sense its safe to say you are expected to be speccing with threat as a concern.

So, veteran of the third war is out of the frostdk spec, and I've included here a bear in the previous "tank gear", high ilevel leather and tank accessories, alongside a bear in "cat gear", essentially full rogue kit.

Image

Now personally I would use this adaptability to tailor a druid kit really finely, meaning I'd expect a real druids results to fall somewhere between the two. In my opinion at least, that would place them far more in line with the other tanks.

Additionally frost dks, while still packing crazy avoidance, are somewhat behind in what I always feel is the more important stat of raw survival. Factor in that much of that avoidance is coming from on use abilities and I think we have four tanks that are potentially equal yet definitely different.

edit: I should note, the paladin figures assume 3% sott
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Postby Sëryph » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:08 am

Huge Fix with DR on avoidance and some other minor fixes.

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